94 replies to this topic

[SteveM]

To be honest I don't think people will be put off as far as VXs go. It only takes a quick run in a remapped car to demonstrate the difference in drivability compared to a standard chariot. That alone shows prospective customers what they can look forward to without a graph in sight...

well said

I don't expect my old Regal map will differ that much from my new TMS map in terms of overall numbers, but I am more than impressed in the way it now drives from before. That is what matters.

[SteveM]

I supose n/a owners and VXT owners have different expectations when it comes down to remaps and what they want out of it....

[jules_s]

I supose n/a owners and VXT owners have different expectations when it comes down to remaps and what they want out of it....

hmmmmmm,

My first thought was 'no they bloody dont, what a stupid comment. We/you buy a product on what its advertised at being'

If my car is now making 146bhp as opposed to 145 as standard after spending about 1.5k on it then I think im justified in being a tad pissed off.

IM very happy with my TMS stage 2+.....very happy. i can only imagine that the initial benchmark of standard figures was higher than i expected.

Bottom line is that at least JT is being honest here. Ive seen lots of posts on other sites about tuners cranking up the ante and claiming all sorts

The power/torque gains are genuine IMO....we just need a level playing field if these sort of things are to be discussed on here

[Anarchy]

When all figures get published for the full range of cars tested everything should hopefully look OK, relative to each other on the day. There may be the odd freak result The std cars as far as I am aware were close to standard figures which seems like a good bench mark for the RR. I imagine RR's can be tweaked to produce any figure you like without the car owner knowing exactly whats goin on. Thorneys honesty runs the risk of TMS looking less successful at tuning cars, its a lot easier for people to compare figures and graphs than actual cars performance.

[nakajima]

stage 1 NA i had done at the open day i have no doubt it has given it all but 1 or 2 hp more. but it drives a lot quicker, more top end umph and drivability and delivery. thats whats important in these cars. wouldnt say no to 300 ponies though

[Tony]

Perhaps the only way to solve this is for one of us to go undercover and have his/her car tested on a number of rr in a short period of time, eg in the same week. Even then you would expect slight differences due to air pressure and temperature but it may solve this argument. Thank to John and the team for a good day , even the missus got to lunchtime without the usual "how much longer are we going to stay here"

[LY25MAX]

Back to the original question, I had mine rr at Thorneys last week; 127bhp @ wheels- full Janspeed system, viper, TMS 2+ Can we get a table together of all the people who have had a figure at TMS (no where else) together with the mods they have done. Surely this is the best way to compare?

[SteveM]

I booked it in for a service yesterday and also tohave the Milltek sports cat fitted at the same time. It'll then be a "stage 2+", so i'll post the figures up for comparison

[christurbo]

Back to the original question, I had mine rr at Thorneys last week;

127bhp @ wheels- full Janspeed system, viper, TMS 2+

Can we get a table together of all the people who have had a figure at TMS (no where else) together with the mods they have done. Surely this is the best way to compare?

Good idea!

I'll start a new thread as this one has sort of detoured!

[cheeky_chops]

ah, just done one - shall we start it in tuning + mods??

Any onther columns to add??

Edited by cheeky_chops, 14 May 2006 - 10:44 AM.

[christurbo]

Oooops!

Ive started a thread >HERE< for the collection of results.

Then we can input them into that table?????

[cheeky_chops]

ok - will continue in that thread. Have added a few more

[christurbo]

[Joe-Turbo]

how do you know what the temps where? what are the readings at the bottom of the graph? BP/RH/AT/IT/RR/TN?

[urbanmac]

I can only add that if I had been sold an upgrade to my car that promised/suggested/insinuated that it would give me a certain increase, I would expect it to do just that, I know that every car is different and you have to allow for this tolerance but it seems quite a few did not make what the owner had expected/paid for.

I'd agree on this, different tuners websites state estimated power output after each stage, if you've paid your £500 or whatever and its not within a tolerance (which also should be stated on the tuners website) then that should be money back IMHO.

(interesting that Thorney's website has been updated today, stage prices have gone up and bhp figures removed!)

[Thorney]

I'm a bit tired to go into full details but will obviously do so next week, but I guess a couple of comments I should make now. Yes, since leaving AmD I have tried almost every single map I've written on about 6 different rolling roads and I've been unable to come up with consistent figures, each road varied so much that I doubted the very process rather than the map. I then tried 3 different Dyno Dynamics roads and each one provided an identical number (with1% of each other) on the 4 cars I tried albeit those numbers were no-where near what I was expecting (and I tried cars from all three tuners). As a result I bought the Dyno Dynamics road (even though it was £17k more expensive) The plan for the day (for us anyway) was to measure as many different variations of car as possible and cross reference both our maps to others to standard. We knew the numbers would be lower than expected hence the TMS site is being re-done to reflect the numbers *we* can produce and not others ideas of those. I haven't been able to do this until this moment obviously. Yes, this does create a commercial risk that on a chart to chart comparison TMS numbers wont match Courtenays or Regals, about which I'm angry, but the alternative is that I 'adjust' our figures to reflect others levels and frankly that is simply lying and is not something I will consider. My hope is that the customer recognises what we are doing and looks a bit futher than claimed numbers. A few points: 1. We run 3 standard VXT's and 3 standard NA's and they all came up with accurate numbers (approx 197bhp at the flywheel for the VXT's and 145bhp for the NA's) so we KNOW the road is 100% accurate. 2. Flywheel figures are the worst possible comparison. We had a Courtenay CS3 car there (was one of their ex demo cars iirc) and according to Courtenays rollers it was 265bhp at the flywheel and on ours is was 233bhp. However I've not seen a power at the wheels figure yet and seeing as that is the only accurate measure I will reserve judgement. 3. We did 3 standard NA's to stage 1 tunes and all three owners came back confirming the car felt stronger in every gear, acceprated faster, was smoother and had more torque. However on the rollers the gains on the chart were negligable. This I am looking into as it does seem odd. Certainly the claims of 20bhp from a stage 1 map look excessive but the gains in drive are very evident and very noticeable so there is more to tuning than charts. 4. We did learn an awful lot about our own maps and we'll be developing these further, I think we're too conservative on the held boost level so we can increase that without fear for the turbo (although there were 2 cars there with turbo issues so I think I'm right to be conservative. Of course any chancges to the aps we make will be availabl for free upgrades to those who've had earleir versions. (we're not like Microsoft in that respect ) The main conclusions for me were: 1. Power at wheels is the only true measure, the rest frankly is BS 2. Our Dyno is 100% accurate (as proved by 4 standard cars) 3. Claimed power from all the tuners (including myself as AmD) are simply unachieveble and therefore should be ignored 4. There is more to the remap than just the headline figure, indeed the headline figure is the least important. 5. There is a risk to being honest in business, but the risk of being caught being dishonest is higher - you must take your pick and ride it, I have. I'll psot up the details of verything this week, will be hard as I'm off on thre days of training at Vauxhall for warranty approval stuff so bear with me. It was an excellent day, everyone seemed to have a good time and refelcted the ahrd work we've put into the place. Customer service is 1,2 and 3 on my list for people so if we keep that right then everything else follows.

[urbanmac]

good post

[scottvx220]

it does make you feel like you have wasted money when you have had the work done to get it to a higher stage of performance and then you get figures the same as a standard car.you might get a bit more torque and yes the car feel better but 2bhp more than standard does not make you happy