Jump to content


Photo

Brakes Reprised


  • Please log in to reply
56 replies to this topic

#1 cyberman

cyberman

    Super Duper Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 652 posts

Posted 27 May 2006 - 10:16 PM

Thought some might like to see the next mod going on.

Posted Image

These are 4 uprights machined from billet with very different disks and calipers.

Posted Image

The disks are 315mm 28mm wide 4.6kg AP with an Elise Parts ali bell. The uprights straight from Elise Parts. The calipers are the economical AP Pro 5000+ - with spacers to accomodate the bigger disk.

Posted Image
Posted Image

The rears use the HiSpec UltraLight handbrake caliper. Note the toe-link in double shear on the upright and with shimmable mountings for bump steer and adjustable toe by twisting the link. Pukka.

We had to mill the pads (RS14) by 1mm on the rear to get them to fit. I'll go into the theory and report how it all goes over the next few days. In the interim, enjoy. I am, I go into awe over how pretty they are every time I look at them ...

Edited by cyberman, 27 May 2006 - 10:23 PM.


#2 cyberman

cyberman

    Super Duper Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 652 posts

Posted 28 May 2006 - 12:42 PM

I have always been unhappy about the VxT brakes and have been through a variety of pads and disks. The RS14 pad seems a good compromise for those doing road and track work. However, I still found that the brake system suffered severely from overheating when driven hard.

So much so that I felt I was close to boiling new DOT 5.1 fluid. Certainly I have been blueing disks which I believe doesn't happen below 720C (its something to do with a change in iron / carbon organisation to form a different allotrope with different physical characteristics). All of this is etiher nasty or dangerous.

I did a bit of modelling of the energy dissipated when braking the VxT from speed. I selected a slowing from 100-50mph at 1G deceleration which is pretty severe but not unreasonable. This process dumps approximately 2*10^6 Joules which is equivalent to drawing 8,000 amps from your main supply for 1 second - err, running 670 of the biggest heaters you can run off a 13Amp socket. AsS most of this is dumped into the brake disk the temperature goes up very rapidly indeed. Have a look at the top line in this graph which shows an uncooled 3kg front disk hitting 476C in the 4.6 seconds to knock off 100mph (I've allowed for 2:1 disspation front / rear).

Posted Image

I tried to make an estimate of the cooling effect of having the disk in a real airstream but there is no straightforward analytical approach as modelling turbulence in the wheel / wheel arch etc is a mystery understood only by God and some physicists doubt even that. Still, suggesting the disk surface is moving through a column of air the length of the braking period and maybe 1.2 cms wide with a transfer efficiency of 50% seemed to yield reasonable looking numbers. The middle line shows the temperature of the disk with this estimate of cooling effect.

I expect the cooling rate is not a linear function of the volume of air passing the disk face / second. If anyone knows more about this or has real observations to plug into the model I would be glad to hear of them.

The bottom line shows the effect of improving disk cooling by shunting a circular column of air (75mm dia) moving at slipstream speed to the centre of the disk. This shows very significant improvement in disk temperature as it stays well below any threshold for change in frictional charcateristic and well below fluid boiling temperatures. Thats why the foglight ducting has worked so well. Chopping slots is the next thing for me to have done.

Interesting as this primitive analysis was I wasn't entirely convinced it told the whole story. One can suppress temperature rise by using a bigger (weight) disk but one still has to get the same amount of energy out of the system and thats easier at higher temperatures. One can increase the disk diameter (the braking effect goes up as a square of radius) which improves modulation. It still doesn't feel like the entire answer.

The other half of the heat dissipation issue is the pad: we have evidence that the disk surface was reaching 720C+ (and not knowing how high) even if the expected whole disk temperature is maybe only half that. We are trying to stuff an unconscionable amount of energy into a very tiny surface area.

I have noticed that with Mintex 1144s I ate 6-7 mm of pad in one track day - not much more than 90 minutes driving. Thats got to argue that the pad material has crossed a thermochemical threshold and is breaking down in some way. The SBS pads also exhibited a phase change and had poor friction when hot which did not improve with load. The RS14s also exhibit a dramatic change in characteristic although they respond again when pressed harder. Published figures for RS14 suggest the friction characteristic is fairly flat up to about 650C. I think this all argues the pad surface is getting too hot - its a localised skin phenomenon.

OK, so by increasing pad area we can reduce the energy density. Its probably why the change to 4 pot calipers is regarded as succesful. Its not so much to do with brake balance / torque its a lot more to do with keeping the pad in the correct energy handling range in watts / sq cm.

Unfortunately I don't have the time to make a series of experiments to validate this contention. So I am going to kill it all in one go: the biggest diameter disks you can get in a 16" wheel, increased mass of rotor, better internal ventilation from greater disk cross-section, bigger pads all round, increased slave piston area, hoovering great brake ducts feeding the front disks.

I had planned to modify the front end with bigger disks, caliper spacers and some bigger Brembo calipers. In the end it turned out to be faster to persuade Geary at Elise Parts to modify his standard offering to take bigger disks (caliper spacers). Whilst discussing this with him I found I greatly liked the idea of his GT rear uprights which alter the roll-couple and allow a lower ride height. It didn't hurt that they also supported the toe-link properly. By bodging the pads (milling 1mm off the face) we can squeeze the 28mm disks into the radial mounting handbrake caliper (HiTec Ultralight). Hopefully it will all be on the car and at the track next weekend.

I plan to instrument this with an IR temperature probe into a data logger. Has anyone got a source for a cheap one? The one sold to F1 teams seems just a tad on the pricy side. Anyway, this make an attack on the brake problem and to some degree on the handling issues. And, with the new toe-link I can run slicks. Now that is going to be fun.

#3 cyberman

cyberman

    Super Duper Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 652 posts

Posted 28 May 2006 - 02:52 PM

Whoops, where it says 100-50mph it should say 150-50 mph (67metres/sec to 22m/s) - 100mph velocity change. My apologies, fingers getting away again.

Edited by cyberman, 28 May 2006 - 02:58 PM.


#4 garyk220

garyk220

    VX parts all sold, saving for replacement

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,035 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Scottish Borders

Posted 29 May 2006 - 08:35 AM

Excellent Ian thumbsup I'm looking forward to hearing how you get on with them. I've had my eye on the Eliseparts uprights and calipers for a while now. Will this give you much of a weight saving?

#5 cyberman

cyberman

    Super Duper Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 652 posts

Posted 29 May 2006 - 09:34 AM

Will this give you much of a weight saving?


I plan to weigh the corners as we swap them over: I'll publish the results. It should for the uprights weigh almost nothing (well by comparison with the current unit). The hub bearing pack is another kettle of fish but everyone has one of those. The disk should be a tad heavier than the OEM so it may all cancel out. I'll let you know when its done.

#6 Muncher

Muncher

    Scary Internerd

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,494 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ipswich

Posted 29 May 2006 - 11:47 AM

How much did that setup cost you?

#7 cyberman

cyberman

    Super Duper Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 652 posts

Posted 29 May 2006 - 12:11 PM

How much did that setup cost you?


Far too much! £4K+. Expensive for brakes only but eventually I was persuaded by the uprights and the immediacy of the deal. Don't let anyone tell you I don't love my little car ...

#8 johnaachen

johnaachen

    Scary Internerd

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,619 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Leamington Spa and I hate it
  • Interests:Karting, F1, golf, tennis, binge drinking, giving up smoking

Posted 29 May 2006 - 10:06 PM


How much did that setup cost you?


Far too much! £4K+. Expensive for brakes only but eventually I was persuaded by the uprights and the immediacy of the deal. Don't let anyone tell you I don't love my little car ...


And an engine awaiting your collection! :P

#9 cyberman

cyberman

    Super Duper Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 652 posts

Posted 30 May 2006 - 07:12 AM

And an engine awaiting your collection! :P



Hi John. I hadn't forgotten. I hope to pick that up in the next few days - certainly before the end of next week. I'll give you / Chris a call to liaise. I had to sort out my workshop so I can strip it.

Regards - Ian

#10 cyberman

cyberman

    Super Duper Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 652 posts

Posted 02 June 2006 - 08:38 PM

Well we got the corners on and the brake ducts in. The NACA duct scoops for the front brakes are very very horny. They also look like they will deliver at least 3x as much air as the foglight conversion. Its going to be fun :D The corners are lighter than the originals by at least a kilo each - I should get exact weights on Monday. The rears lower the car about 15mm straight out of the box. However the toe-link inboard mounting is a mess. :drink: The link fouls the plate / flange unless its spaced off so far that the box section (which puts the mount into double sheer) can't be fitted. We thought about it and we don't like this bit much (particularly the rivetted mounting). So we are going to fabricate a new mount which will also introduce some of the strengthening and load spreading Lotus introduced as a kit and now fit on the Exige. I'll post some piccies when we get it together. There are other minor niggles, the handbrake cable supplied needs to be made 15mm longer, the rear brake pipes need a RtAngle union rather than straight and so on. But nothing too major. It all looks very nice and will be strong, stable and adjustable when finished. Its going to be fun :D In fact the only woggly in the grease is that the weather is magic, I had a booking at Goodwood tomorrow and now I can't go. Boo hoo, I love Goodwood. Oh well, back to the drawing board (literally) I have to sketch out our new combo mounting system and brace for Monday. I have to tell you I had forgotten just how much I used to enjoy doing this stuff. But its coming back to me, its coming back to me.

#11 Smiler

Smiler

    Scary Internerd

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,352 posts
  • Location:Somewhere Ooop Norf!

Posted 02 June 2006 - 10:26 PM

have you cut the clam for the ducts? Look forward to the pics and results. Was looking at the belled discs this week as I need new discs n pads, but then add lotus hubs, new wheels full set of tyres! lol.. Kaching!.. :-( Looks like your having fun again :D si

#12 cyberman

cyberman

    Super Duper Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 652 posts

Posted 02 June 2006 - 11:30 PM

have you cut the clam for the ducts? Look forward to the pics and results.


Yes, heathen great holes. They are the familiar NACA shape with the toe near the rad inlet and the big aperture / plunge where the foglight used to be. Not small. Then 2x 75mm pipes lead the air away. They are just .. butch. I'd have pictures but the phone ran down and and and .. I should get some tomorrow or Monday.

BTW we were thinking about making the clam dam section a separate entity popped on with some dzus. It would make getting at the front end so much easier.

#13 cyberman

cyberman

    Super Duper Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 652 posts

Posted 03 June 2006 - 08:52 AM

Was looking at the belled discs this week as I need new discs n pads, but then add lotus hubs, new wheels full set of tyres! lol.


Now I've thoroughly investigated the brake business for the Vx I can say with confidence that getting bells made is no big deal. There are several people who can / will do it. I suspect Geary at Elise Parts would do it if asked. All he would need to do would be pierce his standard bell differently. :tt:

Otherwise people will make them for ~£60-80 each from scratch (e.g. BG Developments). However you need to give them an upright assembly to work from, i.e. hub carrier, caliper, hub bearing and disk and the new rotor (although BG will supply these as they are an AP main dealer). As it happens I've got some spare corners at the moment (as I expect do others) with both 4 & 5 bolt bearing packs, solid and ali-bell disks.

I could probably be persuaded to "rent" them as "engineering models" for a small amount of beer as long as they come back clean and whole in a predictable timeframe. Alternativley I suppose I could get some 5*110 ali-bells made for some over the counter AP rotors if anyone wanted some - however the quantity of beer needed might be Niagara like in its cross-section and velocity. chinky chinky

#14 Arno

Arno

    Need to get Out More

  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,233 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 03 June 2006 - 04:06 PM

I suspect Geary at Elise Parts would do it if asked. All he would need to do would be pierce his standard bell differently. :tt:


Asked him about that once and he's willing to sell his ali-belled S2 elise discs for the VX for a small extra fee ( I THINK it was something like 20 quid per disc extra, but ask him). Unless a single order for something like 20 sets or so is done, then it's for the normal price.

Does need slightly different bells as, according to Geary, the 5-hole VX brake discs have a slightly different offset. Only 1 or 2mm, but enough to cause problems if you were to simply drill the S2 versions with 5 bolt holes (and the right center hole) and put them on.

Bye, Arno.

#15 christurbo

christurbo

    Scary Internerd

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,784 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK
  • Interests:My Civic Type R
    My Black Beast of a VX!!!

Posted 03 June 2006 - 04:10 PM

Ooooooooooops - I think Ive just made a man mess :blink: Stunning :o A full write up is necessary! :)

#16 cyberman

cyberman

    Super Duper Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 652 posts

Posted 03 June 2006 - 05:34 PM

Does need slightly different bells as, according to Geary, the 5-hole VX brake discs have a slightly different offset. Only 1 or 2mm, but enough to cause problems if you were to simply drill the S2 versions with 5 bolt holes (and the right center hole) and put them on.


Arno, I am confused. I think the hub bearing packs are identical apart from the PCD of the wheel bolts. They fit both Elise 2 and VxT uprights (which are about the same as far as I can see). So when you put the hub bearing packs in the VxT you can just bolt the ali-bell disks on and they sit properly in the VxT caliper. I really don't think there is an issue (except possibly a commercial one).

I now have both types available to me off the car - unfortunately not in the same place but I will have them all here at home next week. I will measure them up and report. Geary's a nice guy and very helpful but he does like a tooling charge.

Regards - Ian

#17 Thorney

Thorney

    Whipping Boy

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,404 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bucks, UK
  • Interests:Global domination.

    Fluffy bunny rabbits.

Posted 03 June 2006 - 07:41 PM


Was looking at the belled discs this week as I need new discs n pads, but then add lotus hubs, new wheels full set of tyres! lol.


Now I've thoroughly investigated the brake business for the Vx I can say with confidence that getting bells made is no big deal. There are several people who can / will do it. I suspect Geary at Elise Parts would do it if asked. All he would need to do would be pierce his standard bell differently. :tt:

Otherwise people will make them for ~£60-80 each from scratch (e.g. BG Developments). However you need to give them an upright assembly to work from, i.e. hub carrier, caliper, hub bearing and disk and the new rotor (although BG will supply these as they are an AP main dealer). As it happens I've got some spare corners at the moment (as I expect do others) with both 4 & 5 bolt bearing packs, solid and ali-bell disks.

I could probably be persuaded to "rent" them as "engineering models" for a small amount of beer as long as they come back clean and whole in a predictable timeframe. Alternativley I suppose I could get some 5*110 ali-bells made for some over the counter AP rotors if anyone wanted some - however the quantity of beer needed might be Niagara like in its cross-section and velocity. chinky chinky


BG are actually making bells for us right now.

#18 garyk220

garyk220

    VX parts all sold, saving for replacement

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,035 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Scottish Borders

Posted 03 June 2006 - 11:19 PM

Arno, I am confused. I think the hub bearing packs are identical apart from the PCD of the wheel bolts.

Ian, a friend makes up alu-belled brake kits for S1 & S2 Elises. I dropped a standard VXT disc off to get it measured up, expecting he'd only have to increase the central hole size (from 56 to 65mm) and drill the 5 bolt 110 PCD. But he confirmed the height of the central part of the disc is different. Only a few mm as Arno said, but enough to mean a different pattern is needed to machine the bell.

I went for S2 hubs a few months later so didn't pursue it.

#19 cyberman

cyberman

    Super Duper Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 652 posts

Posted 04 June 2006 - 07:43 PM

But he confirmed the height of the central part of the disc is different.


Clearly I'm a chocolate lollipop for I don't really understand - there must be a degree of freedom in one of the dimensions which I haven't grasped in my mind's eye. Fortunately I've got both sets of disks etc about me and I shall assiduously apply a precision measuring instrument to them in the next 24 hours or so. I will then a. understand a lot better what everyone is talking about b. report with pictures so that we can all know what is involved.

Regards -Ian

#20 garyk220

garyk220

    VX parts all sold, saving for replacement

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,035 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Scottish Borders

Posted 05 June 2006 - 09:02 AM

The height of the centre bell fixes the position of the disc face. Any difference in this will mean the disc will not fit in the centre of the caliper. I'll be interested to see what your measurements show... if it is only a few mm difference it is possible it could be made to fit.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users