15 replies to this topic

[itiejim]

Hi folks,

I hope you folks are all right with a VX imposter, I have another version of the car made by a company called Lotus. They're more usually known for unreliable cars with missing interior trim

Anyway, I saw the thread by Ground effect who fitted a Rover V8 in the back of a VX220 and am tempted to have a go at a variation on the theme - an TVR Cerbera (AJP) engine in my Elise. This is totally different from the Rover lump, it's a flat plane crank 75 degree V8, my last one made 401 bhp and 375 ft/lbs torque. It's also a lot lighter than the Rover lump at only 121 kgs, so I think it would really suit the car. Also, critically, I have one in my garage looking for a home

So... I've worked out that for it to be a practical conversion the engine has got to go in transversely like the Ground effect did with the Rover lump which means using a FWD application gearbox.

My car currently has a Honda K20A engine and, although it's a good strong 'box, it's a bit too big. The Rover 'box is a no, no and the Toyota one isn't much better, so I wondered how you guys got on with putting big power through the GM (Getrag F23) 'box and driveshafts?

Also, would someone be kind enough to measure the distance from the drivers' side longeron to the gearbox bellhousing?

Any other thoughts most appreciated!

[Bargi]

Welcome and good luck!

There was talk from a guy last year about a V8 conversion here
Been pretty quiet on any progress though

[Nev]

Thats an ambitious project, mainly from an engine bay space perspective

The F23 and M32 gearboxs are quite robust. The F23 is nominally (arbitrarily) rated to 230 Ft/Lb of torque but can handle way more than that in light cars such as ours. This is because the inertia of propelling a Lotus of approx 900 KG is way less than say a 1500 KG Vectra and hence the dynamic strain is less (though the static strain would be more for a hill start for example). If F23s are subjected to overheating the plastic sleeves that are fitted on the end of the selector forks melt/distort and cause gear selection issues, so be sure to cool your box well with air or fit a 3rd party oil pump and radiator if you intend to run big torque for sustained periods.

Mine has handled 350 to 400 ft/lb for 5 years now. I believe Klassen ran his with cira 600 BHP for some time (presumably making somewhere in the region of 460 ft/lb).

If you want to run more than 400 ft/lb of torque you will need a dual plate clutch BTW, which is expensive.

Good luck with your project, it always amazed me how Ground Effect and his uncle managed to squeeze a V8 in there transversly. Maybe you could return with some nice pics and a write up ?

Regards,

Nev.

Edited by Nev, 06 March 2012 - 10:21 PM.

[itiejim]

Thanks both, I was amazed to see that Rover V8 in there transversely too, which is what got me wondering about a home for my "spare" AJP8. It's only about 55 cm long, compared to about 80 cm for the Rover V8. It's also a more compact V8 as it is 75 degree V rather than the Rover's 90 degrees - so I hold out hope. However, I really can't be a$$ed to get into a massive fabrication job. If it fits transversely with the box in the original location then great, otherwise it can wait until I find a Westfield or something to put it in. Does the rest of the transmission hold out OK? Regarding the clutch, the original Cerb clutch is a twin plate AP Racing one which may be an option with the right centre plates.

[Nev]

Does the rest of the transmission hold out OK? Regarding the clutch, the original Cerb clutch is a twin plate AP Racing one which may be an option with the right centre plates.

Hmmm, people have varying levels of success with their Getrag F23s in terms of reliability. Recently (last year or so) there have been a spate of people getting issues, but I suspect this is to do with overheating. The drive train in mine has become a bit worn and there is a little bit of noticale 'pick up' clunk now, but this might be the drive shaft CVs wearing.

My clutch cost me a small fortune and is a hybrid of a Sachs cover which was hardened and a Helix 4 paddle plate. It is good for 400 ft/lb and bites well even though I fouled the plate with an oil leak for 3 months. I reckon it might even take 425 ft/lb possibly before it slipped.

[slindborg]

If fitting a nice engine, why no also I a decent transmission too, such as a sadev or Cima setup.

[itiejim]

My last AJP was particularly torquey with 375 ft/lbs, 350 is more typical, so hopefully the box should be OK with that. Are any of you chaps able to measure up the engine bay for me - basically I want to know whether there is the necessary length available with the 'box in the original position. A measurement from either side of the frame (the longeron bit) to where the gearbox bellhousing meets the engine would be a great help.

[itiejim]

If fitting a nice engine, why no also I a decent transmission too, such as a sadev or Cima setup.

It's just not worth the investment. A Sadev 'box will be well over £5k and makes the project financially unviable in my eyes.

[siztenboots]

did the tvr ajp8 carry over the Rover v8 bolt pattern for the bellhousing?

i think this is it

[siztenboots]

actually thinking about it, I would speak to Steve Guglielmi. He would know exactly to make this work.

[Rosssco]

Looked briefly at the AJP V8 engine for such a conversion (bored tinternet browing only) and it appeared that the engine water pump is mounted at the front of the engine and may not allow a driveshaft to pass by it, as of course it was never intended for transverse installation. I also think the starter was on that side (effectively the vehicle rear). Its quite wide in that area, but may depend the mounting orientation, and of course it may be feasible to fit a separate electric pump or something.. The F23 gearbox is cheap and common, so may be worth getting a hold of one (or at least the bell-housing) and working out the relative positioning of these sort of things (probably your plan anyway). There's also two different mating patterns with different starter motor positions which may help. Hope this is a goer, for the sound alone but might be something to be aware of. Ross

Edited by Rosssco, 07 March 2012 - 09:38 AM.

[itiejim]

The bellhousing pictured is an AJP8 one, tbh I don't know whether that's the same pattern as a Rover V8 or not? The oil & water pump set is indeed the driveshaft side of the engine (drivers side if fitted longitudinally). I don't know whether it's positioned in such a way that it would cause problems or not tbh. On the TVR the starter motor is mounted on top of the bellhousing - you can see the cut out on the picture above - so something innovative would have to be done there. Steve Gugliemi is certainly a good call. My car was up there for a service a few months ago, he certainly knows his Elises and AJPs very well having raced them both sucessfully.

[Arno]

So... I've worked out that for it to be a practical conversion the engine has got to go in transversely like the Ground effect did with the Rover lump which means using a FWD application gearbox.

If your Elise is originally a Rover then this becomes quite hard and you can't really take the VX-Rover-V8 conversion as an indication that it would fit.

Don't forget that the VX/Speedster engine bay is quite a bit wider and deeper than the Elise as the rear subframe is completely different and mounts onto different points on the ali chassis. The Toyota powered Elises come closer in available size.

I guess you would need to do similar work like the guys from Woodsport did to fit the V6 Camry engine and gearbox to the Elise a little while back: serious remodeling/rebuilding of the rear subframe and clam work, but even then you'd need to vary carefully check the total lenght of engine+box and the space between the chassis 'legs' to see if it will fit at all.

http://www.woodsport...-/44-lotus.html

Bye, Arno.

[itiejim]

Thanks to all and to Arno for the extra info. After seeing Rosssco's comments I had the tape out again today and think that it's a no-goer anyway as a transverse installation due to the pump set mounted down the side of the engine which will comprehensively block the intermediate shaft. Thanks for all your feedback folks, guess I'm going to have to find something else to put my AJP in....

[slindborg]

Longitudinal mount....

[MrSimba]

DG will have it done in a weekend!