89 replies to this topic

[oblomov]

You're missing the point. I'm saying with a standard turbo, i.e. less boost pressure, with the extra pressure loss across the CC, there is more lag. Comparing standard intercooler and standard turbo vs LEH turbo (more boost pressure) and a chargecooler is not like for like.

FYI Joe It wasn't MMG that did the measurements. Have you done any pressure drop measurements on a CC?

ETA, I'm not getting dragged into yet another debate

Yes, but every one knows that a charge cooler is far far superior to an intercooler.

[turbobob]

Ah good old pick a couple of numbers out the sky ay tubbybobin

Constructive as ever Joe

Edited by turbobob, 16 March 2012 - 03:09 PM.

[turbobob]

So you can't get your head around the fact the heat exchanger core of a charge cooler is denser than the core of the standard intercooler? This isn't about which is better. The core is denser on a stage 4 intercooler so you may see more lag using that on a standard turbo.

[NDT]

So you can't get your head around the fact the heat exchanger core of a charge cooler is denser than the core of the standard intercooler?

This isn't about which is better. The core is denser on a stage 4 intercooler so you may see more lag using that on a standard turbo.

I've got a very helpful old SAE paper on intercooler / chargecooler design if anyone's interested?

[techieboy]

Like I said, I could give a sh!t (but that's all) about which is better and that wasn't what I was asking nor arguing. A denser core doesn't necessarily equal a lower flow rate of charge air through the exchanger, does it? Surely that has more effect on the flow of the chosen coolant.

[NDT]

That depends on what you mean by core density. Seems like too simplistic a measure to me. Flow rate of charge air will depend on pressure drop across the core due to geometry and fin shape.

[The Batman]

Ah good old pick a couple of numbers out the sky ay tubbybobin

Constructive as ever Joe

just as constructive as picking random numbers out of the air and comparing stage 3 lag to stage 4

Edited by joe_589, 16 March 2012 - 04:21 PM.

[turbobob]

Measured actually Joe. I was comparing standard turbo to LEH turbo. And on each turbo both a standard intercooler and larger intercooler / charge cooler. The larger intercooler and chargecoolers have denser cores for more surface area, therefore more heat transfer and as a result a greater pressure loss. So, your usual non constructive input is again not taking on board what I have said. I haven't actually compared stage 3 lag to stage 4.

[The Batman]

cool, can you link me to the information please, i love a good read. i must have misread it just how you misread everything i say about mmg, i read it as you comparing stage 3 intercooler compared with a chargecooled car. its ok though as i admit i get things wrong once in a while. funny how no one commented on the other thread after my input though hey

Edited by joe_589, 16 March 2012 - 06:32 PM.

[slindborg]

So you can't get your head around the fact the heat exchanger core of a charge cooler is denser than the core of the standard intercooler?

This isn't about which is better. The core is denser on a stage 4 intercooler so you may see more lag using that on a standard turbo.

I've got a very helpful old SAE paper on intercooler / chargecooler design if anyone's interested?

Oh h oh yes please

[turbobob]

I also don't say that everything I read that you write about MMG is negative. I have said, that things that you do say could be interpreted in a negative manner, and I'm not the only one who thinks this. There is info on the internet about flow / pressure loss and cooler cores. Now can we all get back to playing nicely?

Edited by turbobob, 16 March 2012 - 07:04 PM.

[The Batman]

i always play nicely you are just a very easy person to whind up

[cnrandall]

So you can't get your head around the fact the heat exchanger core of a charge cooler is denser than the core of the standard intercooler?

This isn't about which is better. The core is denser on a stage 4 intercooler so you may see more lag using that on a standard turbo.

I've got a very helpful old SAE paper on intercooler / chargecooler design if anyone's interested?

Yes, please... chris@hofmanns.co.uk

[turbobob]

Do you now? That's the thing. I don't get wound up. So keep trying Joe: p

[The Batman]

you come across very short tempted and easy to whind up, there is no way in denying that many people have noticed

[turbobob]

Uh huh. Good one Keep trying

[Dave H]

So you can't get your head around the fact the heat exchanger core of a charge cooler is denser than the core of the standard intercooler?

This isn't about which is better. The core is denser on a stage 4 intercooler so you may see more lag using that on a standard turbo.

I've got a very helpful old SAE paper on intercooler / chargecooler design if anyone's interested?

Yes please to the paper. I'm just about to start building my own chargecooler system and have a few contacts who make cores.

Thanks in advance.

enquiries@davehardwick.co.uk

[chrisgold]

That's well and good Nev. But what you aren't taking into account is the density of the core and how restrictive it is. Because of the higher density, on a smaller turbo, the flow is more restricted and you are likely to loose 4 to 7 psi with a charge cooler. Therefore adding lag.

Yea you are right in thinking the core shape/density will have a strong influence on the flow and hence BHP particularily at high RPM as the air cant flow fast enough to the engine and effectively artificially starves it of air. However, this is different to inducing lag. Generally speaking on a turbo charged car, lag is a manifestation of impellor latency (ie the time it takes the CHRA to spool from 0 to approx 100,000 RPM). This is primarily influenced by the mass of the CHRA, the resistance of the bearings/spindle, the blade angles and the bore/dia of the incoming exhaust manifold pipe and snail inlet.

For the OP, when I looked at the inlet pipe (in particular) and outlet pipe of my old Pro-Alloy CC I thought were too small and asked Alex to increase these to 76mm. This might be worth thinking about too if you are trying to flow better.

Pressure drop on the proy alloy CC is 2-3 psi, So pro alloy claim, so it could be a little more....

[hutchy]

I knew it was going to degenerate into this! So no one has put a non bespoke intercooler in then? The car came with vxr turbo and injectors already and allegedly an uprated clutch. I just would like another 20bhp for a slight bit more poke.

[The Batman]

You got all the basics for a full stage 4 there! Go on treat yourself to a chargecooler and a remap