363 replies to this topic

[P11 COV]

Ok.... I'm a fairly seasoned track day driver and reasonably quick. The car has enough power so I'm overhauling the suspension to improve the hanling. its a bit old and sloppy at rhe moment. What would you suggest:


http://www.elisepart...anti-roll-bars/


Or


http://www.elisepart...-anti-roll-bar/


Or is there something better I should be considering?

[MrSimba]

Another option for you http://www.vx220.org...ns-pilbeam-arb/

[Bumblebee]

Cornering force arb

[P11 COV]

Cornering force arb

How much

[Bumblebee]

Cornering force arb

How much

Yeah it's not the cheapest option but it seems to get very good reviews off here

[Spitfire Engineering]

A bit unfair to directly compare the Cornering Force bladed front and rear ARB setup with the others mentioned above as it is of a different order. Designed specifically for the VX, heavily data logged and finely tuned to the car to trim front and rear roll. Far more adjustability from the front blade and a much greater input to the suspension system as a whole.

[JG]

[cnrandall]

Pilbeam is the best, nice and light, good design, very very well tested on cars that win stuff.

[D3YMO]

ive just bought the pilbeam one, lets hope its as good as everyone says

[SimonR]

Hi in my biased opinion you ought to consider the Cornering Force front and rear bar kit mentioned by others above... :-) we developed this because many of the set-ups being promoted relied too heavily on stiff springs to control roll rather than have a "suitable" proportion of the roll resistance provided by the ARBs. a car needs to have a higher rate (stiffness) in roll compared with ride (ie just driving along). we worked on the spring rates, ARB rates (front and back) and the damping rates as a integral system rather than deal with them piece-meal - this really makes sure that everything works in harmony. the system we sell for the road makes the car very nice and flat in roll, very responsive and also capable of batting down a B road at the speed limit without it feeling at all harsh. the system we use for racing allows it to go a bit stiffer to match the stiffer spring rates used. this is also where the rear bar helps enormously. Chris, its hard to say one system is the "best" when you dont have intimate knowledge of the other one. when i promote a kit designed for crossover road and track day use then i focus on why it works well for the road - not about racing. we do have our designed, fabricated and tested ARB systems on BTCC, GT, Britcar, VW cup and countless other race series in the UK and abroad - we have been successful many times. if you put a race car spring rates, ARB rates and damping rates on a road car it will be harsh, uncomfortable and probably lack balance and certainly grip - thats why the choice of a front and rear ARB with suitable springs and damping is so important. i think this is why people are coming to us as they have had very harsh set-ups in the past that they want to get rid of. Personally i cant comment on the Pilbeam bar because i havent had it on a car to test Thats just a quick general comment, i'm very happy to explain any more detail if anybody has questions. Simon

[Whiteboy]

Hi

in my biased opinion you ought to consider the Cornering Force front and rear bar kit mentioned by others above... :-)

we developed this because many of the set-ups being promoted relied too heavily on stiff springs to control roll rather than have a "suitable" proportion of the roll resistance provided by the ARBs. a car needs to have a higher rate (stiffness) in roll compared with ride (ie just driving along).

we worked on the spring rates, ARB rates (front and back) and the damping rates as a integral system rather than deal with them piece-meal - this really makes sure that everything works in harmony.

the system we sell for the road makes the car very nice and flat in roll, very responsive and also capable of batting down a B road at the speed limit without it feeling at all harsh. the system we use for racing allows it to go a bit stiffer to match the stiffer spring rates used. this is also where the rear bar helps enormously.

Chris, its hard to say one system is the "best" when you dont have intimate knowledge of the other one. when i promote a kit designed for crossover road and track day use then i focus on why it works well for the road - not about racing. we do have our designed, fabricated and tested ARB systems on BTCC, GT, Britcar, VW cup and countless other race series in the UK and abroad - we have been successful many times.

if you put a race car spring rates, ARB rates and damping rates on a road car it will be harsh, uncomfortable and probably lack balance and certainly grip - thats why the choice of a front and rear ARB with suitable springs and damping is so important. i think this is why people are coming to us as they have had very harsh set-ups in the past that they want to get rid of.

Personally i cant comment on the Pilbeam bar because i havent had it on a car to test

Thats just a quick general comment, i'm very happy to explain any more detail if anybody has questions.

Simon

I agree, from what I have seen the very stiff farb are an only track set up and if you still use the VX on the road, the corning force set up is the best set. At least elise part advice the thinner bar, to keep your car road safe!! I surpose it depends on how much you want to spend, so as you have shown two bars I would go for the thinner one.

Steve

Steve

[cnrandall]

Chris, its hard to say one system is the "best" when you dont have intimate knowledge of the other one. when i promote a kit designed for crossover road and track day use then i focus on why it works well for the road - not about racing. we do have our designed, fabricated and tested ARB systems on BTCC, GT, Britcar, VW cup and countless other race series in the UK and abroad - we have been successful many times.

if you put a race car spring rates, ARB rates and damping rates on a road car it will be harsh, uncomfortable and probably lack balance and certainly grip - thats why the choice of a front and rear ARB with suitable springs and damping is so important. i think this is why people are coming to us as they have had very harsh set-ups in the past that they want to get rid of.

Personally i cant comment on the Pilbeam bar because i havent had it on a car to test

Thats just a quick general comment, i'm very happy to explain any more detail if anybody has questions.

Simon

Hi Simon,

I've setup a few cars with the cornering force bars on the road. Still don't think the rear ARB works on the Elise platform particularly well and the setup is unnecessarily complicated and heavy. The Pilbeam setup has a nice range of adjustment, on the softest it works well on the road combined with the right spring rates, and the firmer setting give a nice range of adjustment for the track.

[Pidgeon]

Hi

etc

Simon

I agree, from what I have seen the very stiff farb are an only track set up and if you still use the VX on the road, the corning force set up is the best set. At least elise part advice the thinner bar, to keep your car road safe!! I surpose it depends on how much you want to spend, so as you have shown two bars I would go for the thinner one.

Steve

Steve

We have a couple of responses on this thread from folk who know what they're talking about, let's keep the BS out.
1, Simon doesn't say a stiff ARB is bad for the road, he says a race combo of spring/damper and ARB rates is bad for the road, accordingly you can't conclude the CF solution is 'best' on that basis.
2, EP do not advise the thinner bar to keep your car road safe, they state the ARB does not affect ride comfort.
3, ARB stiffness is not necessarily related to diameter - it could be a tube.

[JG]

I'd advise anyone thinking about the sorts of investments you can make in suspension systems on these cars to pick up the phone and chat with Simon, with Chris, with Back on Track, with anyone else in the business and even with me if you want (I'll chat to anyone for ages about VX220s), and then take a view.

[irishterrier]

Iam unable to get technical on this subject but having my Vxr in several garages with several setups with both standard and nitron 2way shocks was very unhappy with the way the car handled on anything but smooth surfaces so much so was ready to sell I then heard of c/f and decided to book car in for front and rear arbs revalved nitrons and softer springs shocks where also dynoed car corner weighted and wheels aligned when I picked the car up was overjoyed with the way it now handled it was totally transformed from the skittish way it was rough b roads are now a joy rather than dread even the braking is so much better I personally can't recommend this setup enough best mod on my stage4 with r/l t/c for sure

[P11 COV]

Interesting what folk a thread like that brings in. are they all lurking for an opportunity to sell their wares,or do they have computer program that watches for key words and alerts them? Anyway, this has all got to deep for me! It's also gone looking at a less than 200 quid product to £700+ I only asked as whilst everything else is being done it wouldn't increase the labour charge to change the ARB for something a little better for track work. I thought that would be more useful than spending a similar amount tarting up my wishbones and not feeling any benefit as no one can see them! I do find it strange that JG should be recommending such an expensive and complex option such as cornering force. How do you know it's so good when your car isn't used that much and (as far as I am aware) you do not track it that often either? The two ARB's above we're suggested by Matt Bentley, who is going to do my refurb. Interestedly he recommended the thinner one for my particular use. I

Edited by P11 COV, 12 March 2013 - 05:24 PM.

[ArticMonkey]

Interesting what folk a thread like that brings in. are they all lurking for an opportunity to sell their wares,or do they have computer program that watches for key words and alerts them?

Anyway, this has all got to deep for me! It's also gone looking at a less than 200 quid product to £700+ I only asked as whilst everything else is being done it wouldn't increase the labour charge to change the ARB for something a little better for track work. I thought that would be more useful than spending a similar amount tarting up my wishbones and not feeling any benefit as no one can see them!

I do find it strange that JG should be recommending such an expensive and complex option such as cornering force. How do you know it's so good when your car isn't used that much and (as far as I am aware) you do not track it that often either?

The two ARB's above we're suggested by Matt Bentley, who is going to do my refurb. Interestedly he recommended the thinner one for my particular use.

He owns and sells them so can speak from experience I guess.

[JG]

I do find it strange that JG should be recommending such an expensive and complex option such as cornering force.How do you know it's so good when your car isn't used that much and (as far as I am aware) you do not track it that often either?

Thats a little unfair.

I use it for two or three track days a year and don't mind giving it to people i trust to drive on track either. Jimmy had multiple goes at Anglesey with it last year, the videos of which are plenty on here. Mike drove it at le Mans (that was a bit scarier )I've tried some of the set-ups listed here, oh and I specialised in active suspension systems (using Lotus f1 dampers) once upon a time so i have a pretty good grounding in how it all works.

I'm all for using the car properly, but i do like it to be clean too.

I thought i was about as unbiased i could be and deliberately refrained from stating why i think one option is better than an other, speak to all the suppliers (and even me), make your choice.

[techieboy]

I reckon Simon is the least salesy salesman (he's not, he's an engineer) I've ever met and am pretty sure he'd rather not sell you anything, rather than something that wasn't right for you. We had many conversations about my intended use and the suitability and he was more than happy for me to go through the same conversations with others, including Chris and Steve Guglielmi. In the end, I kept coming back to the Cornering Force approach, that to my mind at least, made much more sense than a massively sprung semi-race setup. There's been lots of mentions of Cornering Force over the years and I reckon Simon has probably only contributed to two or three threads, so he's definitely not actively pushing anything. Even if he were, I'd still be interested to hear the arguments for and against from Simon and Chris and whoever else is vaguely qualified to comment. I've done a dozen or more trackdays with my Cornering Force setup and SteveA has probably done more than that. I love it. It works. Both on the track and even more importantly (for me), on the road. That was coming from an Elise Parts adjustable ARB (that really isn't adjustable in reality) before having the Cornering Force ARB setup installed. The flexibility of just being able to reach behind the OSF wheel and adjust the blade to suit conditions is wonderful. Granted, it's still a bit of juggling act to know whether the adjustment you need to make is damper related or ARB related (especially as Simon never supplied the instructions to me ) but the after sales support Simon gives is fantastic. As far as I know, it remains the only aftermarket setup that has been specifically developed on and for the VX. Is it for everyone? Probably not. If I were after the very last thousandth of a second (I'm lucky if I can do two consecutive laps within 5 seconds of each other) in a racing situation, would I still have it? Maybe, maybe not. But I know I'd have spoken to Simon about what further options I had open to me. The Elise Parts adjustable ARB and bushes were definitely a step up from the standard ARB on my car, when I upgraded to them. Bear in mind, I did it at the same time as a total suspension refresh, so maybe not all of the improvement can be said to have come from the ARB alone. But the car instantly felt better on track. Pillbeam obviously have a good racing and preparation reputation but I'm only aware of one VX with that ARB on and it wasn't available at the time I had the CF setup. So I can't make any informed comments. YMMV

[JohnTurbo]

Simon likes his bar, chris likes his, and you all like whatever you have. Can we agree a stiffer bar is good? Right so what is stiff and cheap?