939 replies to this topic

[oblomov]

 

Sorry Icey, I agree with you on lots of things but not that. Sure, there's an awful lot we don't understand. but there's simply no evidence or even logic that we exist as anything but biological entities, and any talk about spirits or soul's is just human's making up fairy stories.

 

Best regards to you also -

 

 

That's not true, there is plenty of evidence that we are not simply mechanical biological entities, but you have to be eclectic in your search and the time to look at a very broad spectrum of evidence.  You mention logic, I assume you mean syllogystic logic is a closed information system and as such renders no new information and is flawed for a number of reasons including the fact that it's conclusions are often drawn from assumed premises.

 

In science the big question is Consciousness, and what it actually is because science can't bridge the gap between the sensory input of the material body and the immaterial nature of consciousness, let alone the evanescent nature of thoughts.  Scientific materialist believe (like youself) in the primacy of the material world, with consciousness as a secondary experience.   However the latest scientific thinking has made a paradigm shift and is at last starting to move in the right direction and now the possibility is being considered of counciousness as the primary experience and the physical world secondary.  Put another way, to experience the world you must first be conscious.  What that means is that all experience is consiousness, and the material world, as real as it seems is a construct of that consciousness.  This may be new to science but the theory is actually over 2000 years old along with the proof, you just need to know where to look.

 

Once consciousness is understood to be the primary experience then everything changes.  The problem with most people's understanding of things is that it takes binary form, either something is or it isn't, Yes/No 1/0 everything is black or white, but the real world isn't like that.  If consciousness is the primary experience and the physical world a construct of that consciousness then physicality is both real in the immediate experiential sense, and but not real in the sense that it is a construct of consciousness.  In real terms this means the world is not what you think it is and all your most cherished beliefs are based on a failed understanding of the nature of your existence.  So your understanding not just about religion and whether or not God exists but everything is incorrect.

[KurtVerbose]

You've been watching the matrix too much. That looks very dodgy science - of which there a lot about now.

[ghand]

I have to agree with Kurt, very Matrixy 😄 You have consciousness because you brain is procesing information then you croak, it all goes black and then you have no consciousness simple 👍 😄 Why do we need any more than that ? I keep harping on about it 😄But we have millions of pounds on offer for someone to show any tiny scrap of evidence of life after death and it's never been claimed. Plenty willing to take £20 of someone so they can speak to a dead relative or plenty chasing ghosts on tv for money and plenty praying but the millions has never been claimed and I can't think why 😂😂😂😂 .

Edited by ghand, 04 April 2016 - 04:54 PM.

[ghand]

  Sorry Icey, I agree with you on lots of things but not that. Sure, there's an awful lot we don't understand. but there's simply no evidence or even logic that we exist as anything but biological entities, and any talk about spirits or soul's is just human's making up fairy stories.   Best regards to you also -    

That's not true, there is plenty of evidence that we are not simply mechanical biological entities, but you have to be eclectic in your search and the time to look at a very broad spectrum of evidence.  You mention logic, I assume you mean syllogystic logic is a closed information system and as such renders no new information and is flawed for a number of reasons including the fact that it's conclusions are often drawn from assumed premises.   In science the big question is Consciousness, and what it actually is because science can't bridge the gap between the sensory input of the material body and the immaterial nature of consciousness, let alone the evanescent nature of thoughts.  Scientific materialist believe (like youself) in the primacy of the material world, with consciousness as a secondary experience.   However the latest scientific thinking has made a paradigm shift and is at last starting to move in the right direction and now the possibility is being considered of counciousness as the primary experience and the physical world secondary.  Put another way, to experience the world you must first be conscious.  What that means is that all experience is consiousness, and the material world, as real as it seems is a construct of that consciousness.  This may be new to science but the theory is actually over 2000 years old along with the proof, you just need to know where to look.   Once consciousness is understood to be the primary experience then everything changes.  The problem with most people's understanding of things is that it takes binary form, either something is or it isn't, Yes/No 1/0 everything is black or white, but the real world isn't like that.  If consciousness is the primary experience and the physical world a construct of that consciousness then physicality is both real in the immediate experiential sense, and but not real in the sense that it is a construct of consciousness.  In real terms this means the world is not what you think it is and all your most cherished beliefs are based on a failed understanding of the nature of your existence.  So your understanding not just about religion and whether or not God exists but everything is incorrect.

Can you show us some of this evidence that says we are not just biological. If we have evidence we are not just biological then why wasn't it plastered all over the news ! Why are we having this discussion if we have evidence. I could take this evidence prove life after death be a millionaire and live happily ever after.

[Seb.F]

Still going I see. Good sh*t.

[iceman]

The way i see it is that we have a certain grasp of the reality of life, of how it works, biologically and how it stops working but we have little knowledge of the symbiotic relationship between species and even less between the dualism of 'Reality' and 'Consciousness'. Certain strands of the most simplest bacteria around today have been found focalised and carbon dated as 3.5 billion years old (the main component in the process of photosynthesis if i remember correctly) which remain virtually unchanged in all that time. It is believed that those strands were the forefathers to the breathable atmosphere that supports life today, they have no concept of reality (as we know it) but are so interlinked in to ours, that we would/could not have come in to existence without them. Are they our God? They technically jolly well should be, for they quite literally gave us the breath of life but no! at best, they are a link in the partnership chain of our evolution up to the present day. Such intricacies are rife throughout the whole cosmos, from the birth of stars to the creation of planets and on to the seeding of life as we know it, the process of nuclear-synthesis (through Hydrogen i think) has woven simple straight chains of carbon in to this rich tapestry of life as we know it, in a way we are only now beginning to understand. All this happening under our noses, unseen and until relatively recently, unknown but all now believed to be reality (from our perspective). This balance of the creation of energy and it's release filters down through everything we know and as far as i am concerned, through every reality of every element intricately layered throughout time and space. Our perceived reality is just one, one born of our consciousness but through the eternal cycle of all realities, be it elemental or biological, one thing is constant, nothing ends, it just changes and moves on to a different layer (the biological broken down and released in to it's elemental components to be reintegrated once again and the elemental, to be strung together on to it's biological destiny). An infinite number of realities, layered, each balanced to it's own definitive elemental laws and each true to itself. I guess again that sounds all very science fiction but then looking beyond ones own reality is always going to sound so. 'Time' itself is not the constant we once thought, for the zero gravity astronauts have been found to age at a different rate than if they'd stayed on earth. With our ever changing horizons, surely a multi-verse instead of a universe and multi layered realities, are not so far fetched. Now, i know that i am a rather uneducated man and although i do try hard, i often fail to explain myself properly or find the words to paint the picture that i see in my mind (or heart), so if i myself were alive three and a half (give or take) thousand years ago when the books of the bible were started, i very well may have had to use the same metaphoric style (albeit, different words).   I find the concept of the elements of life being eternal, easy to comprehend/believe and the idea of each lifeform using those elements leaving behind a fingerprint of some kind, a small step from there. I guess that can all be summarised in to one statement...with the now known complexities of our reality, death to be the end of everything is just far too simple a conclusion.   I'm not really sure why i am sharing my madness but, hey-ho, there it is for all to see. I hope that at least some! of it makes a little sense.   ...icey

[casino]

I have to agree with Kurt, very Matrixy 😄 You have consciousness because you brain is procesing information then you croak, it all goes black and then you have no consciousness simple 👍 😄 Why do we need any more than that ? I keep harping on about it 😄But we have millions of pounds on offer for someone to show any tiny scrap of evidence of life after death and it's never been claimed. Plenty willing to take £20 of someone so they can speak to a dead relative or plenty chasing ghosts on tv for money and plenty praying but the millions has never been claimed and I can't think why 😂😂😂😂 .

Ahhhh me old matey, here we go again, back to the original question of this thread. Belief. Do we believe in God? Not so much does God exist but do we believe in God. Not can we prove God exists but do we believe in Him. It's all about belief. What I mean is that how ever much dosh you wave around you won't ever get your question about God answered. God won't allow Himself to be proved by science. Nope, he wants belief. Keep going if you don't believe me, keep looking to science to find prove God.

[ghand]

I have to agree with Kurt, very Matrixy 😄 You have consciousness because you brain is procesing information then you croak, it all goes black and then you have no consciousness simple 👍 😄 Why do we need any more than that ? I keep harping on about it 😄But we have millions of pounds on offer for someone to show any tiny scrap of evidence of life after death and it's never been claimed. Plenty willing to take £20 of someone so they can speak to a dead relative or plenty chasing ghosts on tv for money and plenty praying but the millions has never been claimed and I can't think why 😂😂😂😂 .

Ahhhh me old matey, here we go again, back to the original question of this thread. Belief. Do we believe in God? Not so much does God exist but do we believe in God. Not can we prove God exists but do we believe in Him. It's all about belief. What I mean is that how ever much dosh you wave around you won't ever get your question about God answered. God won't allow Himself to be proved by science. Nope, he wants belief. Keep going if you don't believe me, keep looking to science to find prove God.

Give it time and science will prove we have no Gods. We will look back in a thousand years or two and look on religion a bit like we do about us burning witches a few years back or us thinking the world was flat. Now I'm off to read about the millions of years with the dinosaurs in the bible 👍😂😂😂 oh hang on 😄 Oh and Casino you never got back to me about which of the five tales about who found Jesus back from the dead was the correct one and why such massive differences by witnesses at the time ? I'm waiting 👍😂

[ghand]

Still going I see. Good sh*t.

👍 But we are just repeating ourselves over and over 😂😂

[casino]

I have to agree with Kurt, very Matrixy 😄 You have consciousness because you brain is procesing information then you croak, it all goes black and then you have no consciousness simple 👍 😄 Why do we need any more than that ? I keep harping on about it 😄But we have millions of pounds on offer for someone to show any tiny scrap of evidence of life after death and it's never been claimed. Plenty willing to take £20 of someone so they can speak to a dead relative or plenty chasing ghosts on tv for money and plenty praying but the millions has never been claimed and I can't think why 😂😂😂😂 .

Ahhhh me old matey, here we go again, back to the original question of this thread. Belief. Do we believe in God? Not so much does God exist but do we believe in God. Not can we prove God exists but do we believe in Him. It's all about belief. What I mean is that how ever much dosh you wave around you won't ever get your question about God answered. God won't allow Himself to be proved by science. Nope, he wants belief. Keep going if you don't believe me, keep looking to science to find prove God.

Give it time and science will prove we have no Gods. We will look back in a thousand years or two and look on religion a bit like we do about us burning witches a few years back or us thinking the world was flat. Now I'm off to read about the millions of years with the dinosaurs in the bible 👍😂😂😂 oh hang on 😄 Oh and Casino you never got back to me about which of the five tales about who found Jesus back from the dead was the correct one and why such massive differences by witnesses at the time ? I'm waiting 👍😂

I did, I just said never mind the blah blah take a look at the bigger picture. And yep, prob right about looking back on religion. That's mankind all over, so up its own Arse that it can cancel out God. Easy to do too, why wait another 2000 years? Choose Science, choose imac's, choose scientific proof....(sounding like a script from trainspotting...Tell you what...how's about Godspotting? What's so wrong in believing that God exists? Or is it some sort of hang up that mankind ain't as top dog as it recon it is?

[casino]

Still going I see. Good sh*t.

Flipping too right it's still going. Been going 2016 years and still going strong.

[Bargi]

You've been watching the matrix too much. That looks very dodgy science - of which there a lot about now.

I have to agree with Kurt, very Matrixy

Give it time and science will prove we have no Gods.

Hilarious, 44 pages of shouting black and blue with "Science almighty" and now it turns out Science can't be trusted now. Just look how over the years the theory behind so many things has changed. I'm sure you believed science explained how planes stayed up in the air, oh no hang on, turns out that was wrong too. Like the 5 tales of Jesus coming back from the dead, which are you going to believe?

[ghand]

You've been watching the matrix too much. That looks very dodgy science - of which there a lot about now.

I have to agree with Kurt, very Matrixy

Give it time and science will prove we have no Gods.

Hilarious, 44 pages of shouting black and blue with "Science almighty" and now it turns out Science can't be trusted now. Just look how over the years the theory behind so many things has changed. I'm sure you believed science explained how planes stayed up in the air, oh no hang on, turns out that was wrong too. Like the 5 tales of Jesus coming back from the dead, which are you going to believe?

That's the beauty of Science, it questions itself all the time till we eventually prove the earth is not flat and so on. Eventually sh*t gets proven beyond all doubt which is why we now know why planes stay up 😂😂 Unlike belief with no proof. The belief is just taken as gospel no pun intended 😂

[casino]

So, can you prove God doesn't exist?

[Rudy]

Still stand by my post 2 odd years ago (fck me, has this thread been going on that long!)....post no. 9 No change. No, actually it's worse.

[KurtVerbose]

So, can you prove God doesn't exist?

 

Why would he bother when you would just take it as proof of how strong your faith is by not believing the science?

 

I don't believe science could prove there's no god. It's like proving there're no fairy's. There will always be some deluded person who believes in a god fairy's.

 

I do think science will eventually explain life, the universe and everything most things and it's a much better discipline than saying some made-up god did it all.

 

Still stand by my post 2 odd years ago (fck me, has this thread been going on that long!)....post no. 9

No change. No, actually it's worse.

 

Yup.

Edited by KurtVerbose, 12 April 2016 - 10:31 AM.

[ghand]

So, can you prove God doesn't exist?

In my mind very definitely yes. If God existed then he would answer the odd prayer I presume or else why bother worshiping and praying ok. Well he never has and never will which is all the proof I need. I spent a lot of my younger years in church and watched hundreds of folk pray for local kids, baby's, teenagers and people dieing of various things and not one ever recovered. The toddler who played in my house with my kids who had Lukemea was prayed for by many religious folk for a long time, did God listed ? Did he fcuk. My mate with brain damage was prayed for by many, did God listen ? Did he fcuk. I could fill the page but you get the jist. Not one prayer was ever answered in all my religious years which is why I'm now a born again Atheist.All the singing and praying and worshiping is just a waste of time. So we may have some all powerful creator but I dout it who's long since disappeared off some place far far away but definately not one who listens or gives a sh*t or gets involved or has a nice place for us if we are good boys and girls who worship him.

[ghand]

So, can you prove God doesn't exist?

Ever had a prayer answered ? If so id love to hear about it. If not that's your proof. The dictionary says it's a solemn request for help addressed to God. It's never worked yet as far as I know.

[KurtVerbose]

I saw George Carlin on this and he found out that about half his prayers were answered by god, but about the same success rate when praying to Joe Pesci.

 

Make of that what you will.

[Mani]

I saw George Carlin on this and he found out that about half his prayers were answered by god, but about the same success rate when praying to Joe Pesci.   Make of that what you will.

what Joe Pesci and God are the same Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk