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#1 Graeme Lambert

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 09:45 PM

So I know this topic has probably been covered to death, but after much searching it seems like there's a lot of exhaust threads that just finish without a summarised ending, so thought I'd ask the question based on people's real-world experiences.

 

The exhaust will be attached to a Saab B207 hopefully running around 280ish bhp on a standalone ECU and the car will be used for road and track. For me it's important that it sounds good, all while remaining under track day noise limits. I know, that wasn't a pig that just flew past the window.

 

However, I don't want to get this wrong - this whole project is to be done once, and done correctly. Add to that I'd rather not spend thousands on some bent metal pipework and my requirements just seem to get harder and harder.

 

Currently I have a tullet 4-1 manifold (in I think 2.5inch diameter) but nothing else lined up. Aware of Larini, Tullet, 2bular, Milltek etc plus the usual 'custom' suspects like longlife. Is there anywhere else I should be looking, and am I right in thiking 2bular is now only sold through MMG for our cars? I'm already aware that the Larini will probably be too loud for the track.

 

So what do people recommend that isn't prohbitively expensive, will last a long time, will sound sporty and involving on the road but not fall foul of track day noise regs please. And any pointers on where best (cheapest is normally best in my book) to get one...

 

Thanks folks.

 

G



#2 CocoPops

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 09:50 PM

I've a 2bular and it's quite loud.

#3 CocoPops

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 09:51 PM

Add to that I'd rather not spend thousands on some bent metal pipework....

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#4 nicollow

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 09:52 PM

Ive got a Pipo modded OEM one and its pretty much stock sounding, but a wee smidge louder. Theres no issue of it blowing out the stuffing, its cheap as fook. The only issue is that it probably starts to constrict at 280+. Mine was dynod at 258bhp, and was/is grand at that ;)  A larger bore U-tube would aid top end a bit...



#5 nicollow

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 09:54 PM

FYI my Larini was fcuking stupid loud, on an otherwise stock N/A. Sod one of those on an S/C. Would drown out my One Direction!!



#6 CocoPops

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 09:56 PM

Can't be as bad as Goose's VSE on his stage 2 SC

#7 Graeme Lambert

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 09:56 PM

I've a 2bular and it's quite loud.

 

I don't mind loud, in fact loud doesn't bother me its the tradkday organisers that I need to please

 

 

Add to that I'd rather not spend thousands on some bent metal pipework....

Techieboy?! Calling Techie!

 

 

Funnily enough I did think of Matt when posting

 

Ive got a Pipo modded OEM one and its pretty much stock sounding, but a wee smidge louder. Theres no issue of it blowing out the stuffing, its cheap as fook. The only issue is that it probably starts to constrict at 280+. Mine was dynod at 258bhp, and was/is grand at that ;)  A larger bore U-tube would aid top end a bit...

 

Interesting. Any reason the pipo modded OEM backbox manages to keep the noise down so well?

 

FYI guys the car currently had a VXT backbox.

 

G



#8 jonnyboy

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 10:00 PM

I would suggest a Tubby backbox...which I believe is actually the same as an NA one. I had one on my old red SC with a 2bular 200cell cat. Had to take the 2bular off as it blew the packing staight away and was stupidly loud. The OEM rear boxes dont sound that good but noise test at 88db :)



#9 ArticMonkey

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 10:23 PM

Your tullet will be 2.5" and mate with 99% of all exhausts out there. As you know im in the same boat for an exhaust to fit my needs. I've had a stock system with miltek backbox which was fantastic for track day noise and had a very uneak jet sound on WOT, 84db and Bedford. Bad point is you'll struggle to get much more than 255bhp (mine made 251bhp 214ft/lbs torque). Negative being the stock cat failed and took a trip down to the U-bend and got stuck there. :lol: I then bought a tullet mani and 200cel cat/down pipe with a tubby 2.5" backbox and U-bend (note whole system was now all 2.5"). Same car made 262bhp 230ft/lbs torque. The power difference was very noticeable, especially the torque. Noise however went up to 93db but the sound wqs raspy and aggressive. Negative being it was getting noticeably louder each trackday and I'm putting that down to the tullet cat more than the backbox. So now im back for round 3 and dont want to spend a forth time. I want a 3" system for future proofing my car but without the noise that gets you kicked off track. I hear good and bad about both leading competitors but more so on the cats of one type. I know Lee has a good set up that some how got him on Bedford but cant remember which that is. Theres also davemate's custom asbo set up which is 2.5" and gives good power that any stage3 owner would be proud of. Not much point in a decat or second silencer as neither seem to give their desired effect and cost £££. We need as free flowing a set up to produce the best gains. I think others have been on to something about the trumpet effect from the twin tips. Maybe some testing could confirm this? I also know DaveHardwick has been approached to build a SC system but this takes time and a test car. Time most wont have or maybe one of us stay at home type's might? anyway, thats my input. ;)

#10 smiley

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 10:26 PM

There is no easy solution, or every tracker would have had that allready.

Your 2.5" tullett exhaust manifold is excellent, and it get's restrictive after that, with 2" oem.

 

So on your oem cat section, the precat needs to go. (if not done allready). How the 400 cells cat section will hold up with 280; who knows.

The backbox i would indeed replace with the vxt one (make sure to get one INCL!!! the ubend) for optimal quiteness. 

 

Take it from there and see how it works. 

Investmentwise you've then done 50 pounds or so (ex labour)

 

If your 280 horsies setup blows the baffeled vxt, or the cat section to pieces, so be it.

You're then stuck with replacing the baffeled setup with a straight pipe solution, and a less restrictive 200 cells cat..

Those will always be louder, it will get expensive and may get you into trouble at restrictive trackdays.

 

Welcome to the exaust problem club chinky chinky   

 

edit: ah i see the monkeymeister blew his cat with a stock stage II.

There you go, 400 cells is to restrictive to survive.

Maybe get a used mitek 200 cells cat, and the vxt backbox on that?

 


Edited by smiley, 16 December 2013 - 10:32 PM.


#11 fezzasus

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 11:02 PM

I've had both the extremes. Ran a Larini for a couple of years; loved it as an NA but found it too much supercharged. Swapped out for a turbo back box which is utterly characterless but at least quiet. Neither are that restrictive. I think I still had the Larini fitted when you drove mine.



#12 pete-r

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 11:26 PM

I have a larini on my NA and it's pretty loud already...

#13 FLD

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 08:34 AM

I have a 3" tullet on mine with a decat silencer.  I blew out the initial packing straight away so its key to get the highe spec packing.  With a cat in place its quite droney above 50 mph on the road, with the extra silencer it moves the drone up to about 70 mph but its still there.  This gets you on track (dunno about bedford).  You can go quieter by having a single tailpipe and a dummy second to get round the trumpet effect, I believe this cuts off about 5 db.



#14 JG

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 08:38 AM

Tullet mani, tullet cat, VXT milltek silencer. Perfect S2 combination for power (260), torque (230) and noise (93 dab static at 6k rpm), 2.5 in throughout and looks oem from the outside (VXR milltek). All available for less than £1k if you shop around.

#15 Bargi

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 01:48 PM

Tullet mani, tullet cat, VXT milltek silencer. Perfect S2 combination for power (260), torque (230) and noise (93 dab static at 6k rpm), 2.5 in throughout and looks oem from the outside (VXR milltek). All available for less than £1k if you shop around.

 

Pretty much the above.

2.5s have seen 300bhp so will be enough for your setup

3inch more risk of drone and for some tracks would probably require silencers. Not a biggy but extra cost/faff when a Milltek will put you on track without worry

 

Motorway with my NA Milltek is fine and gives enough of a sound remind you it's there.

With the smaller pulley when you jump on the loud pedal you'll hear your SC more than your exhaust anyway :D



#16 vocky

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 01:51 PM

 

Tullet mani, tullet cat, VXT milltek silencer. Perfect S2 combination for power (260), torque (230) and noise (93 dab static at 6k rpm), 2.5 in throughout and looks oem from the outside (VXR milltek). All available for less than £1k if you shop around.

 

Pretty much the above.

2.5s have seen 300bhp so will be enough for your setup

3inch more risk of drone and for some tracks would probably require silencers. Not a biggy but extra cost/faff when a Milltek will put you on track without worry

 

Motorway with my NA Milltek is fine and gives enough of a sound remind you it's there.

With the smaller pulley when you jump on the loud pedal you'll hear your SC more than your exhaust anyway :D

 

:yeahthat:



#17 Graeme Lambert

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 09:44 PM

I would suggest a Tubby backbox...which I believe is actually the same as an NA one. I had one on my old red SC with a 2bular 200cell cat. Had to take the 2bular off as it blew the packing staight away and was stupidly loud. The OEM rear boxes dont sound that good but noise test at 88db :)

 

Got a tubby backbox on there already, though not sure what condition it is as I know it's already had to have some welding to cure a bit of blow

 

 

Your tullet will be 2.5" and mate with 99% of all exhausts out there. As you know im in the same boat for an exhaust to fit my needs. I've had a stock system with miltek backbox which was fantastic for track day noise and had a very uneak jet sound on WOT, 84db and Bedford. Bad point is you'll struggle to get much more than 255bhp (mine made 251bhp 214ft/lbs torque). Negative being the stock cat failed and took a trip down to the U-bend and got stuck there. :lol: I then bought a tullet mani and 200cel cat/down pipe with a tubby 2.5" backbox and U-bend (note whole system was now all 2.5"). Same car made 262bhp 230ft/lbs torque. The power difference was very noticeable, especially the torque. Noise however went up to 93db but the sound wqs raspy and aggressive. Negative being it was getting noticeably louder each trackday and I'm putting that down to the tullet cat more than the backbox. So now im back for round 3 and dont want to spend a forth time. I want a 3" system for future proofing my car but without the noise that gets you kicked off track. I hear good and bad about both leading competitors but more so on the cats of one type. I know Lee has a good set up that some how got him on Bedford but cant remember which that is. Theres also davemate's custom asbo set up which is 2.5" and gives good power that any stage3 owner would be proud of. Not much point in a decat or second silencer as neither seem to give their desired effect and cost £££. We need as free flowing a set up to produce the best gains. I think others have been on to something about the trumpet effect from the twin tips. Maybe some testing could confirm this? I also know DaveHardwick has been approached to build a SC system but this takes time and a test car. Time most wont have or maybe one of us stay at home type's might? anyway, thats my input. ;)

 

Funnily enough I had been thinking about Mr Hardwick. Would be more than happy to use my car as a development car for a new SC exhaust, with whoever wanted to sort it, it's not like I'm doing anything with it myself and probably wont be for a while yet. Have also dragged Davemate's asbo exhaust thread back from the dead in the members products section.

 

And I think you're right, I want a free-flowing 2.5-inch exhaust that doesn't restrict power but is also semi sensible in terms of noise levels.

 

As for Lee making it onto bedford he had to bung up one of his exhaust pipes basically and had to stuff all sorts around his air filter to quieten down the induction noise basically. From that point I'm actually thinking a dummy exhaust exit wouldn't be a bad idea, though what would be ideal would be an exhaust flap with actuator. Turn one pipe off for track use to cancel some noise, turn it back on for grins on the road (and turn it off again if stopped by asbo plod).

 

 

There is no easy solution, or every tracker would have had that allready.

Your 2.5" tullett exhaust manifold is excellent, and it get's restrictive after that, with 2" oem.

 

So on your oem cat section, the precat needs to go. (if not done allready). How the 400 cells cat section will hold up with 280; who knows.

The backbox i would indeed replace with the vxt one (make sure to get one INCL!!! the ubend) for optimal quiteness. 

 

Take it from there and see how it works. 

Investmentwise you've then done 50 pounds or so (ex labour)

 

If your 280 horsies setup blows the baffeled vxt, or the cat section to pieces, so be it.

You're then stuck with replacing the baffeled setup with a straight pipe solution, and a less restrictive 200 cells cat..

Those will always be louder, it will get expensive and may get you into trouble at restrictive trackdays.

 

Welcome to the exaust problem club chinky chinky   

 

edit: ah i see the monkeymeister blew his cat with a stock stage II.

There you go, 400 cells is to restrictive to survive.

Maybe get a used mitek 200 cells cat, and the vxt backbox on that?

 

 

I'm not planning on doing this more than once, so I think rather than cobbling together some pieces of exhaust and seeing what happens I'm going to bite the bullet and come up with something decent from the start, maybe even a bespoke or custom system.

 

The Tullet manifold will be staying though, and i don't think I'll be moving above 2.5inch diameter with the rest of the system in a bid to keep the noise down. As you say it will handle 280ish bhp anyway.

 

 

I've had both the extremes. Ran a Larini for a couple of years; loved it as an NA but found it too much supercharged. Swapped out for a turbo back box which is utterly characterless but at least quiet. Neither are that restrictive. I think I still had the Larini fitted when you drove mine.

 

I think it was the Larini, and for the road I'd be happy for it to be properly loud - however I want to use this car on track, so will have to make sure it can be quiet when it needs to be.

 

I have a 3" tullet on mine with a decat silencer.  I blew out the initial packing straight away so its key to get the highe spec packing.  With a cat in place its quite droney above 50 mph on the road, with the extra silencer it moves the drone up to about 70 mph but its still there.  This gets you on track (dunno about bedford).  You can go quieter by having a single tailpipe and a dummy second to get round the trumpet effect, I believe this cuts off about 5 db.

 

I do think a single tailpipe and dummy second might be the way forward (even if it goes against my grain). I know mike pointed his at the ground when in TA also so noise was being directed at the tarmac not directly out the back of the car.

 

Tullet mani, tullet cat, VXT milltek silencer. Perfect S2 combination for power (260), torque (230) and noise (93 dab static at 6k rpm), 2.5 in throughout and looks oem from the outside (VXR milltek). All available for less than £1k if you shop around.

 

So is it the tullet cats that are better than the 2bular ones for melting then (though I hope my properly calibrated SC shouldn't have that problem anyway). And yes, 2.5inch VXR milltek isn't a bad shout.

 

 

Tullet mani, tullet cat, VXT milltek silencer. Perfect S2 combination for power (260), torque (230) and noise (93 dab static at 6k rpm), 2.5 in throughout and looks oem from the outside (VXR milltek). All available for less than £1k if you shop around.

 

Pretty much the above.

2.5s have seen 300bhp so will be enough for your setup

3inch more risk of drone and for some tracks would probably require silencers. Not a biggy but extra cost/faff when a Milltek will put you on track without worry

 

Motorway with my NA Milltek is fine and gives enough of a sound remind you it's there.

With the smaller pulley when you jump on the loud pedal you'll hear your SC more than your exhaust anyway :D

 

 

You're right, from inside it'll be the SC that I can hear when on the loud pedal. Just need to make sure the whole setup is track friendly.

 

Thanks for all the above info guys, really helpful. Even if it's a shame I can't just go to one supplier and get exactly what is needed in a one stop shop.

 

G



#18 CocoPops

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 09:45 PM

Fezzzaaaaaazzzzuuuusssss is looking at an exhaust actuator valve.

#19 fezzasus

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 09:49 PM

Fezzzaaaaaazzzzuuuusssss is looking at an exhaust actuator valve.

 

I am, just waiting for someone I know to do some chamber calculations



#20 techieboy

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 10:44 PM

Techieboy?! Calling Techie!

  Funnily enough I did think of Matt when posting

You need to take a whole car approach, especially if you're running undersized pulleys (which means a decent enclosed air filter or better yet the standard airbox) and understand that it's drive-by limits that are the problem and not static limits. But, get one thing straight in your mind from the very start, the Z22SE and a supercharger in combination do not make for a "sporty" (whatever the fcuk that is) noise. Forget whatever a VSE or Larini sounds like on an NA car, they sound sh!t (and often offensively loud) for 98% of the time once you fit a supercharger. There is no character to the noise, it's just a wall of noise. I've been through 6 or 7 systems and combinations of systems on my car, after binning the original VSE in my first few weeks of ownership, in the quest for manageable noise levels and it's still not there yet. Where I'm currently at is with a modified full Tullett 3.0" system and manifold with the super high temp stuffing. From the very start, this was too loud and meant a failed noise test at Bedford and Combe (no great loss). Static tests were and have never been a problem at any track I've been to. I went straight back to Tullett's and they agreed to adapt the system to allow for a de-cat silencer (also with super high temp stuffing) to swap in for the cat. This helped a bit. It knocked a couple of db off the overall levels and sort of changed the tone of the exhaust. It also meant for a near silent idle (once the car had warmed up) and low 90db's static tests at 4500rpm. However, this system still got me an instant black flag at Donington when I decided to see what happened when I didn't short shift down the pit straight (98db drive by, right above the track). After that, I convinced myself that maybe the stuffing had broken down and been blown out after a couple of years and plenty of trackdays so removed the system to repack it. Slight problem, packing was totally intact. In fact, it was so intact, I'm not sure it had even expanded fully to do it's job properly (which means it's either too tightly packed, or the exhaust gases aren't hot enough to melt the bindings to allow the expansion). Decided at the very least I needed to get some db reducers to go in the tailpipe. But the Tullett fits the car so well, there was no easy way to attach db reducers in a tidy but secure way (at least not the ones I knew worked properly). We were shortly off to the Le Mans trackdays and I couldn't face another 400 mile drive with the shitty exhaust noise so decided to get medieval on the exhaust. As the back box and tailpipe section (one piece on the 3.0" system) was off the car, I decided that I was going to get the tailpipe section split into two pieces so that the tailpipes were removable and get a number of different tailpipes made up. So I ended up with the original twin exit, a single 3.0" exit which stuck out about 1.5" further from the rear clam so I could easily install a db reducer and finally, the horrible "Cliffie Droop" single tailpipe that I could swap as needed (I also had an add on droopy section to fit the single straight tailpipe but lost that somewhere). A local custom exhaust place did that lot for me and when I went to collect the bits, I had a little brain fart and asked them if they could block the lower tailpipe of the original twin exit tailpipe which they did by blocking the lower pipe where it splits from the main tube and the upper tailpipe section. Due to my hatred of the way any of the other options looked, I elected to refit the exhaust with the modified twin tailpipe to keep the standard looks. To my surprise this actually dropped another couple of db off the static and drive-by tests we did before and after. Still by no means quiet but it definitely helped and made the schlepp to Le Mans a bit more bearable. For the same trip, I also fitted the biggest enclosed induction kit I could find (after giving up on a UK manufacturer adapting a Focus WRC system for me) and that really did help by knocking off some of the higher pitched SC whine from the undersized pulley. Not sure what difference that made in isolation to overall sound levels but I reckon it knocked the induction noise back to something more like the original Stage 2 SC setup and certainly made things more pleasant in the car. Lee basically did a similar thing a few weeks back which by some miracle got him on at Bedford (I still don't think I'd get on there for long if I tried). When/if I ever get the interest in the car back, it's going off to a motorsport exhaust place for them to do some proper frequency analysis on the car (was meant to happen earlier this year but I couldn't be arsed with it) to see where the largest problems are and to see whether i) they can either adapt the system to attenuate those spikes with a quarter wave resonator or two or ii) build a totally new chambered rear box(es) to do the job properly. Hoping for the former but expecting the latter.





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