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Hub Carrier Bolt Failure

upgraded ones failed

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#1 MartinS

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 10:29 AM

Upgraded Laurens hub carrier bolts two months ago to new 10.9 ones, even bought a torque wrench to make sure they were done properly, but after a couple of months and one track day they failed, with the rear right hand ones snapping.

Luckily it wasn't on the road and she wasn't going fast but could have been very very bad news.

The bolts were from mango motorsport and I am in no way suggesting that sub quality bolts would be sold by them, but it is worrying and thought you all should know.

 

Martin S

 



#2 Scuffers

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 10:40 AM

OK, questions:

 

1) what make were the bolts? (do you have a picture of the heads?)

2) were they black bolts or BZP?

3) what torque did you set them to?

4) what kind of camber shimms have you got fitted and how many (if any)?

 

 

oh, and is there any change the top wishbone has made contact with the subframe? (beggs the question what dampers have you got?)


Edited by Scuffers, 20 October 2014 - 10:41 AM.


#3 JG

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 10:44 AM

This is second failure I've heard of for the 10.9s that i've supplied (Nev is the other)

 

Its critical that threads are really well cleaned and that people that fit them ensure they are torquing them up against the hub carrier rather than the thread. Not that i'm blamming the fitter but that could be a possible cause given how quickly they have failed since fitting.



#4 siztenboots

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 10:48 AM

Lotus OEM fitment A117W7212F Description: Bolt, M10 x 50, 10.9G, cap hd., carrier to hub carrier Notes: Qty on Car: 4 Price (each): £1.37

#5 JG

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 10:51 AM

OK, questions:

 

1) what make were the bolts? (do you have a picture of the heads?)

2) were they black bolts or BZP?

3) what torque did you set them to?

4) what kind of camber shimms have you got fitted and how many (if any)?

 

 

oh, and is there any change the top wishbone has made contact with the subframe? (beggs the question what dampers have you got?)

 

1/They are branded Margnor (the company that supplied me, based in Guildford)

2/They are black bots, no coating to avoid brittling 

3/They should be torqued to 68Nm (fitter to confirm)

4/Fitter to confirm



#6 slindborg

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 11:11 AM

 

 

 

 (beggs the question what dampers have you got?)

 

 

Isnt that partly irrelevant given there have been wishbone to tub interface issues with OEM and aftermarket dampers?



#7 Nev

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 11:42 AM

Just to add clarity to this important topic, a single Mango supplied HCB failed on the rear of Nipper, due to a massive pothole (which also bent a wheel very badly as well). So this was not an issue with the bolts themselves. Personally I believe the bolt failed due to me previously curbing the car and then not checking/replacing the bolts (ie point #1 below), in conjunction with what must have been a hell of a pothole impact.

 

My personal thoughts for HCB failures are these:

 

1. When wheels hit curbs, this is when the HCBs will be stretched. Anyone hitting a kerbs should really check their bolts havent stretched (ideally replacing them as a matter of course). If the bolts stretch when they no longer clamp at full torque and are subject to unintended shear forces.

 

2. As JG has corectly said, I suspect some people are not cleaning their threads out first, so the torque value they see is not that of the bolts head biting into the hub carrier, ie part of the toque value exerted by the fiter is simply overcoming the resistance of the badly cleaned threads.

 

3. I doubt many owners check the torque on all their HCBs on a regular basis, IMO they should be, seeing how critical to life and limb they are. I check mine proably every 6 months or so and even more (double + tripple checks) after any change of spacers.

 

4. Some Geo places that aren't aware of this bugbear on VX220s may not take as much care as they should when they fiddle with settings.

 

5. If people put a lot of spacers in, then new longer bolts should be bought so that there is sufficent thread contact.

 

6. Perhaps some people have lowered their ride height too much, such that their damper bump stops are being hit regularily. I reckon this would increase shock loading stress on the bolts (as oppopsed to the nice slow absorbion of energy by the spring + oil).

 

As a bit of extra info, due to the unusual front geo setup I have I was forced to use 12.9 bolts (I coudn't find any 10.8) and have not had any problems with them. Other people (I remember SteveA with the orange stage4 car which was tracked a lot) also had no problems with 12.9 bolts.

 

 


Edited by Nev, 20 October 2014 - 11:51 AM.


#8 Scuffers

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 11:55 AM

 

 

 

 

 (beggs the question what dampers have you got?)

 

 

Isnt that partly irrelevant given there have been wishbone to tub interface issues with OEM and aftermarket dampers?

 

no, let me explain.

 

if the damper allows more travel then it should and the wishbone hits the subframe, then there are two problems.

 

1) the top wishbone then becomes the limiter, this then puts a vertical load on a joint that's not designed to take a vertical load, ie, it twists the plinth and bends the bolts.

 

2) the ball joint can reach the limit of articulation, then twisting the plinth and it's bolts.

 

seen this happen a few times, same deal with ARB's attached to the top wishbone...



#9 slindborg

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 12:37 PM

understood, but the "brand" of dampers shouldnt be of huge contention as I assume "yours" limit in the right place and "all others" dont limit correctly, even OEM. Either way, if there is wishbone damage then at some point its happened.



#10 Scuffers

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 01:14 PM

understood, but the "brand" of dampers shouldnt be of huge contention as I assume "yours" limit in the right place and "all others" dont limit correctly, even OEM. Either way, if there is wishbone damage then at some point its happened.

Mine?

 

come again?

 

look, whip it up anyway you like the question was pretty simple, if the dampers are too short and the wishbone can hit the subframe, then this will load the plinth bolts in a way they are not designed for, and also articulate the ball joint beyond it's limits, further stressing the plinth.

 

that's a pretty simple concept to understand and does not need clouding with some brand biased rhetoric don't you think?

 

If the bolts have broken, (and they were correctly installed) then there has to be a reason.



#11 JG

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 01:22 PM

Btw I'll replace them free of charge if you still want to use them.There are some instances where Lotus didn't drill the holes quite as deap as the others, and where a shorter bolt would be better (otherwise you torque up against the end of the thread). Might be worth checking that too.

#12 CocoPops

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 01:27 PM

Btw I'll replace them free of charge if you still want to use them. There are some instances where Lotus didn't drill the holes quite as deap as the others, and where a shorter bolt would be better (otherwise you torque up against the end of the thread). Might be worth checking that too.

Presumably another reason to clean the threads as noted by Nev (Point 2)? Winding a tap into the thread would show up this shortfall in thread depth?

#13 Nev

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 01:32 PM

It's incredible how many different things can cause these bolts to fail when you think about it. :mellow:



#14 The Batman

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 01:36 PM

thats why i took mine off the road ;)



#15 Tony H

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 02:04 PM

What tools do you need to clean the thread?



#16 Kieran McC

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 02:08 PM

Use a thread Die or a wire brush



#17 Tony H

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 02:15 PM

This?

http://www.amazon.co.../dp/B000K2TC7K/



#18 CocoPops

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 02:17 PM

Yep.

#19 Kieran McC

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 02:23 PM

thumbsup



#20 fiveoclock

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 02:43 PM

thats why i took mine off the road ;)

Thats why we spanner check most of the car and re-torque all the critical items before every race and every quali


Edited by fiveoclock, 20 October 2014 - 02:44 PM.





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