99 replies to this topic

[Escy]

I'm considering buying a VX220 with the intention of fitting a Saab B204 engine. The plan would be big turbo and 400+ bhp. I can't see any details on this conversion (everyone goes for the Saab B207).

 

I'm making this thread to see why it's not a common swap (if it's been done before, i'd like a link to any build threads). 

 

As far as I can tell, the engine will bolt straight up to the original gearbox which will make things easier. 

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Changing engines in the vx is quite a new thing The reason we go for the b207 is its part of the Same family as the z22se And the original z22se engines are getting old and require £s on chains etc etc So was a easy ish change with a brand new engine and internals without the need of rebore etc There is a few turbo variants which have/are moving to VAG engines

[vocky]

The vx220 is all about driving a light car, fitting an old and very heavy engine isn't really a good idea, which is why the B207 is used instead   

[Escy]

Weight wouldn't bother me, it's over the rear wheels and if it had 400bhp it would make up for it. Has anyone done a B204 swap? What's the limit on the standard VX gearbox? Is there any difference between the n/a or turbo VX as a base to build from?

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

The whole point of vx is power - weight and 400 is possible with forged B207 or z22se And I'm sure standard gearbox will be fine ( what box is nev running ?)

[slindborg]

Iirc the 204 is taller than the xe/let and might be an issue

[vocky]

Weight wouldn't bother me, it's over the rear wheels and if it had 400bhp it would make up for it. Has anyone done a B204 swap? What's the limit on the standard VX gearbox? Is there any difference between the n/a or turbo VX as a base to build from?

you could get a cheap NA for about £5k, but it would need a few £k spending on it to get it to handle 400bhp.

 

A cheap vxT would be £7.5k, so best stick with a NA as you would be pulling the engine and box anyway.

 

As for the weight not bothering you, it won't at first, but it will when it handles like a sack of potatoes 

 

We are just trying to help, not to put you off. The vx220 is a brilliant car, but weight does matter with it, certainly far more than any other car I have ever owned 

[Chris P Duck]

Depends what you want I guess. If you just want to boot it in a straight line then weight won't be an issue if it has the power to overcome it (but if this is your aim I'd look at other cars than the VX) If you want it to go round corners and stop then weight will matter, and more power won't help this!

[Escy]

Basically I want a car that's really quick. The handling is great as standard, even if the extra weight takes the edge off it a bit, i'm sure it'll still be good compared to most cars. As a package i'd think it'd be as good as you'd get for the money.

 

I'd probably go for a cat c/d written off car and look to do the conversion with one eye on cost. Would be able to do it for around 8k I think. The Saab engines are cheap and tuning them is pocket money.

 

I've currently got an AE86 with a CA18DET. People would have you believe the extra weight kills the cars handling, it's not the case.

[Nev]

My VX must be one of the heaviest around (940 Kg with 1/3 tank of fuel). Being that heavy does make it bit less agile on very twisty stuff (by this I mean constant sharp cornering, like down a country lane with bend after bend, or possibly on a small track). However, as you say overall on more common-place roads the extra 50 Kg of weight is offset by power. Once you have reasonable line of sight down the tarmac, power counts IMO, so the extra circa 50 Kg is (far) out-weighted by the extra 250 BHP over an NA.

 

The lightweight approach of the NA's must make for a nicer more nimble B-road drive with quicker turn in, less momentum, faster braking etc, which would suit (IMO) a driver wanting to operate in the 30 to 80 MPH range. After approx. 100 MPH the VX needs power as it has a terrible CoD and many rep mobiles will shame it.

 

If you do go ahead, I think the OEM Getrag F23 gearbox is really quite robust so long as it is cooled well enough, and the torque comes in moderately smoothly and you don't bugger the syncho's up with over zealously fast gear changes. You will do well to put as wide rubber and wheels as you can under the existing clams, I think people get away with 225 & 245 f/r setups, which will help you get the power onto the tarmac. Recently refurbed or new suspension is a must have as well, either refurbed Bilstiens or many go for Nitrons - the OEM spring rates are good for bumpy stuff, but consider approx. 50% stiffer for fast (smooth) road, depending on what you favour to drive on.

 

Try getting a passenger ride with friendly local NA owner if you can, then come over to Bristol and I'll show you the difference.

 

Good luck.

 

 

Edited by Nev, 27 December 2014 - 01:00 PM.

[Gedi]

Weight plays a much bigger part in a VX than it does in other cars.There's quite a big difference in handling between a 2.2 and a turbo VX, and I certainly wouldn't want to be putting anything in that weighs more than the the Z20LET engine that the turbo uses.

 

If you want big power at the cost of weight, I'd advise you to consider a different car. If you want a VX and big power, I'd advise a different engine. As Chill mentioned, the VAG engines are a great option.

[Escy]

I've got a 225 Audi TT, can't say I think much of those engines. Not in the same league as the B204 on a cost to power ratio. 

 

I've driven a n/a, my brother had one. They are excellent. I'm not wanting a VX220 for what they are, more what I feel I could make one become. I've got a MK3 MR2 Roadster with a 2ZZ engine (Celica 190), they are good fun but I fancy making something a level up. I did consider the Saab engine in one but it's pointless as the VX220 seems to have more space and has a gearbox that'll bolt straight up with cuts the fabrication side of it down. I'm suprised this isn't a common swap, I can't be the 1st person that's thought of it.

 

Nev, what's engine does your car have?

 

Does the F23 have an LSD or have any factory fitted option (in any car it was fitted to)?

[Nev]

My engine is a heavily modified Z20LET, expensive and very time consuming ground up project, but immensely powerful (for a VX). Click on the link in my signature if you want a read of the project. It has made my car relatively heavy as I mentioned, and it has lost some nimbleness due to weight and other unusual mods, and it is high maintenance in various way, eg new air filters required every 1500 miles!

 

I think buying an NA and switching the engine to a B204 (or better still a B234) would be a very wise choice. If you don't already know, Neo Brothers are you friends for this. VX220s really come alive with power, if you attend to the points I mentioned above and double check the bushes, brakes etc the base car can nicely handle 425 to 450 BHP IMO. Even 300 BHP is a lot and will make you faster than most cars out there.

 

If you want an easy and proven way to make power though, there is almost a "kit" of known parts for supercharging a healthy Z22 engine to a sensible 300 BHP. After that the S/C'ed paradigm has an Achilles heal with over high inlet temps that is not yet solved on the VX220.

 

The F23 does not have a LSD as standard. Quaife and others make one for the car, and it does help a bit IMO, but is not vital by any means.

 

If you go ahead with the Saab engine, I must stress that you need to rigorously consider how you will effectively cool your inlet charge (and your engine + bay to a lesser extent). To give this context, remember that a 400 BHP engine will make the heat of 300 1-bar electric fires...

Edited by Nev, 27 December 2014 - 02:22 PM.

[Duncan VXR]

I've got a 225 Audi TT, can't say I think much of those engines.

The 1.8 20vt lump is old tech compared to the newer 2.0 tfsi s3 spec lump Have the 1.8 20vt in the boot of wife's renault 5 (rwd) I ran also put it in the front of my old renault 5 turbo and very different with software and supporting mods The tfsi been high compression and direct fuel injected make for very responsive turbo lump Nev is running original turbo let engine but now forged and bigger head etc etc and man turbo DG

[speedster]

270whp with 300 lb-ft of torque from an Z22SE in an na configuration would be my pitch. Any additional power is probably a compensation factor.

[Escy]

A compensation factor for what? My idea for this project would be that I could get a car that's seriously quick but by being Saab power it'd be relatively cheap. The engine is a couple hundred quid and are good for around 450 bhp without the need for any internal work. You can get a big Holset turbo for cheap. If I use the Saab management it's easily tuneable which saves loads of money not needing an aftermarket one. Big injectors are reasonably cheap on those engines. The only real things that would cost me money would be sorting out an exhaust and decent charge cooler set up. I'd consider the engine and turbo to be disposal, unlike an original engine that's been forged. Nev, i'll read through your build when I get a chance.

[leevx2.2]

A compensation factor for what? My idea for this project would be that I could get a car that's seriously quick but by being Saab power it'd be relatively cheap. The engine is a couple hundred quid and are good for around 450 bhp without the need for any internal work. You can get a big Holset turbo for cheap. If I use the Saab management it's easily tuneable which saves loads of money not needing an aftermarket one. Big injectors are reasonably cheap on those engines. The only real things that would cost me money would be sorting out an exhaust and decent charge cooler set up. I'd consider the engine and turbo to be disposal, unlike an original engine that's been forged. Nev, i'll read through your build when I get a chance.

I have thought about this rout but would ad a charger into it aswell compound charge it best of both worlds ;-) what is the top power of a b204 standered and how easy is the Saab ecu to map ?

[speedster]

A compensation factor for what?

Not translating all available power into forward motion. I have a forged engine which I had intended to crank up to 400+ but now realise this really would make the car unusable (for me). But everybody has a different story so I would suggest if your heart and head are set on it do it.

[Nev]

 

Not translating all available power into forward motion.

 

Breaking traction is a function of torque (rather than power) by the way.

 

To give you some perspective (based on my experiences), on vaguely decent tarmac and 225mm width track day tyres, even on a cool day it is hard to spin up the wheels even in 2nd gear with 340 ft/lb of torque. I know this from experience, as will most stage 4 VXT owners. Once you are in 3rd gear you can boot it as hard as you want so long as the road camber is reasonable.

 

Now, with a B204 (which has an unusually short stroke which promotes high revs) and a medium frame turbo, you could easily make 400 BHP at 7500 RPM from just 300 ft/lb of torque. Comparing that to a "stage 4" VXT, it would be far easier to put down this fairly minimal torque, and certainly easier than a stage 4 VXT making 340 ft/lb (in order to make 300 BHP).

 

The experience with supercharged car would be even better at a guess, as they deliver the power as if they were a 3 or 4 litre NA.

 

Clearly there are loads of situations where you can't plant 340 ft/lb or even 150 ft/lb from an NA onto the tarmac, it's just a matter of reading the road conditions right (which I am sure myself and many others will attest to not being 100% able to all the time!), LOL. 

 

 

Edited by Nev, 28 December 2014 - 11:13 PM.

[speedster]

sounds like you need a weather station installed If you can't be confident of hitting the red line whilst flooring it in 1st and 2nd and 3rd... most of the time... what's the point?