29 replies to this topic

[C8RKH]

I am slowly turning my VX220 into a highly honed and tuned track weapon. It's a lot easier to do that than it is to turn myself into a highly tuned and honed track weapon!  i'm useless. However, I'm determined to get better, grow some balls in the chicanes and twisty bits, and not be able to blame the car!

 

So, after fitting a harness bar, a harness, the excellent Spitfire Tie Rod ends (a work of art!) and getting some used TD 1.2s with used ZZR's on them from off of here I went and had a hugely fun track day, my first in my VX220, at a gloriously sunny Knockhill last saturday (yes, I know, it is in Scotland but believe me it was a gloriously sunny day!).

 

So, now my attention is turning to suspension.  I have some GAZ "something" on the car but am looking at Nitrons. So my question is, do I go for the street orientated NSS version, or, is it worth spending a good wedge more on the NTR version?  The car will be used more on the track going forward than on the road, but overall use will not be huge as it is a second toy bought mainly to help me to learn to drive fast on the track.  I'm not a car fiddler, so any "adjustments" to the suspension would only be carried out by someone who actually knew what they were doing!

 

Would appreciate any help based on your huge knowledge and vast experience of tracking your VX220.

 

Thanks in advance.

[PaulCP]

Just to throw in another make to increase your confusion & stimulate your grey matter you also have the choice of these https://www.elisepar...m-zero-dampers/ Or if you want to adjust the damping these https://www.elisepar...stable-dampers/ I don't know the cost of the Nitrons these days but having used both Nitron NTR and Quantum single adjustable I prefer the Quantum. If you aren't wanting to adjust the damping then it's NSS v Quantum Zeto

Edited by PaulCP, 29 March 2017 - 03:35 PM.

[Rosssco]

If its mostly track, then the NTR are the default choice, as that's what they are designed for. They are also respectable on the road as long as you're not overly concerned with doing many long trips / daily use etc. (this is the point where someone go's "wrong, I used mine all the time", which is true, but there are better dampers for this..)

 

Some have used NSS very effectively on track too. These are adjustable, and can be revolved / sprung to be comparable to NTR's at some point in the future.

 

Quantum Zero's are good, but non-adjustable, which you may miss if you like fiddling and tweaking your set-up. There is also a 1-way adjustable version.

[C8RKH]

@PAulCP, thanks for adding to my confusion - my grey matter is slowly terminating through age, alcohol abuse and airline exhaust inhaling so I need simple choices!  I'll take a look and hope I don't get too confused too quickly.

 

@Rossco - looking at your location, why weren't you/where you at Knockhill at the weekend too?  There are many things I like to fiddle with, my favourite is quite small, but adding suspension in to the mix is way too hard for me. I wouldnae have a clue wit I wis doin'.....  However, that does not mean that I may not know a man, or a woman, who does know what they are doing when it comes to fiddling with these bits.  Are the NTR really worth the extra £500 on the NSS? And will I ever really get good enough to need adjustable and know what to adjust?

 

Thanks for the responses, in all seriousness I want to learn. I want to get better. I want to get faster.  But it's all double clutch to me right now....

[Acidpopstar]

Just to ask the (obvious?) question - what exactly is wrong with your current Gaz shocks?

[Captain Vimes]

The NSS springs are too soft for dedicated track work (350/450). For a track setup you probably want rates of 500/600 or higher. These kind of rates also need tender/helper springs, the cost of new main springs, helpers and collars is £300-£400. But the dampers would be right on the edge of what the standard dampers can deal with and nitron can't(won't) re-valve them. And even if they could you've spent more on the NSS than just buying the NTR's. So just get the NTR with the right springs/valving. Having said that, the NSS are very capable as a road/track compromise. My experience on track with other vx's (I have NSS) is that the lap time has nothing to do with dampers and everything to do with the driver and the overall setup (geo, tyres, brakes etc). If you have a strict budget you can get away with NSS and a spring change. I'm running 425/525 with no helpers..

[Andy_VX]

Is it a turbo or NA?

 

Captain Vimes is talking a lot of sense there, not sure what the limitations of the NSS are but if you want to push hard on track then spring rates are important. I'd give Nitron a ring and get some advice.

 

I have 40mm NTR's with 450 / 600 lbs springs and 150lbs helper springs, they're fantastic on track and perfectly acceptable on the road. My Dad has the NSS on his VXT, they're good but the car doesn't feel quite as nimble, that being said I've not driven his as hard. 

 

If you want to improve the handling might be worth getting your Gaz shocks refurbed, fitting at a 1" ARB and get a decent geo. 

 

Do you know what spring rates you currently have? 

[C8RKH]

Just to ask the (obvious?) question - what exactly is wrong with your current Gaz shocks?

 

Nothing in terms of do they do what they should. Just looking to get an improvement in performance as I improve as a driver.

 

Like saying to someone who asks about an SC upgrade to an NA - what is wrong with your current engine!  Same answer, nothing, just want a performance improvement.

 

Is this not one of the main reasons to upgrade something on your car?

 

Separately I had heard of, and read on here, mixed reports re the GAZ shocks and their serviceable life, reliability etc.

 

 

Re the other questions.

 

My car is an NA, fairly standard from an engine perspective, it was VX220 Bob's old Silver one, a 2001. He did a full suspension refresh and put on recon GAZ adjustable dampers, do not know the version/model.  

 

I bought it in October of last year as a way of getting a good reliable VX220 that I could learn to drive with and develop as i progressed. I am not a driving god, but do want to improve my skills and speed etc.

 

I have added the Spitfire tie rods as I value reliability and had heard from here they are pretty much fit and forget. I also added the pro-alloy gearbox oil breather mod at the same time. Again, it is about reliable performance so I don't get to blame the car for my slowness or, have to worry as much about failures etc.

 

At some point I will probably look to SC the car, and am generally upgrading it as I go. So, my belief is that before I worry about how fast my car is (powa!!!) I need to make sure I am as fast as i can be with the car being well setup and sorted. Once I reach the cars performance window, I can add powa and exploit it safely and usefully.  I may be talking pish, but it seems the right way to go - speed and reliability should go together i think.

 

I was going to go for a new ARB as part of the suspension changes, and a new geo too at the same time. Seems to make sense to do it all together.

 

As for spring rates etc, i haven't got a scooby doo, but was going to seek advice once i had worked out the best "mfr and model" for my needs both int he short term, and longer term. No point spending on NSS and then 12 months later buying NTR. Sure you get the idea - upgrade well, once, not upgrade then upgrade then upgrade....

 

I do appreciate the help, keep it coming please!

 

 

 

Edited by C8RKH, 30 March 2017 - 11:52 AM.

[Rosssco]

 

@Rossco - looking at your location, why weren't you/where you at Knockhill at the weekend too?  

 

 

 

I forgot all about it, and I've been meaning to get to a SIDC day for a while now! Plus I was pulling the VX out of hibernation in preparation to sell..

[C8RKH]

Real shame, you missed an absolute corker of a sunny day but I don't want to rub it in too much other than to say two VX220's there and being chased through the chicane by a Maclaren 675 LPT in full flight and then having it blast past you at full pelt was some sight!

Edited by C8RKH, 30 March 2017 - 12:42 PM.

[Rosssco]

If only the VX's had some NTR suspension, the 675LT would have struggled to get past..

[C8RKH]

You're supposing the driver in the VX220 with the NTR's wasn't sh*t.  That's where your vision falls down....  Seriously, it was an impressive car on track that Maclaren. Out of the hairpin, with it right on your arse and blink and it's gone past....    Very nice. Not jealous at all - 

[Nev]

I'd be a bit careful of falling into the trap that one coilover is better than another. Spending lots of money of this coilover or the the other won't necessarily make you car better. Ie it might help, but it might also make it worse.

 

I know for a fact that some well known and popular after market coilovers on VX220s had some truely basic and terrible flaws. I've had to personally tell them what was wrong, take pictures and demonstrate the issues for them to rectify the issues. A couple of others on here have had to do the same for one reason or another (not only with Nitrons, but with Gaz, Quantum and Ohlins etc etc). For instance a local VX owner to me, recently spent £2800 on some Ohlins and he was sent comepltely the wrong valving and was messed about. He then tried to get some other manufacturer (can't remeber which) and they were wrong for some reason too. In the end he had to put his old suspension back on, all resulting in his car being off the road for 1/2 the summer!!

 

Also, the the trap of thinking that stronger springs and tighter valving are a "necessity" isn't correct IMO. The suspension is meant to operate with a wide range of up and down travel, the camber + castor + toe profiles all depend on this principle, so if you restrict the travel (with over strong springs and/or valving), you are also restricting compliancy of the suspension, which in turn reduces contact of tyre to tarmac.

 

I myself fell into the "more is better" trap with suspension, and have now reduced all my settings back almost to OEM levels. And the car's handling is better for it. Others will argue the opposite of course, but I'm just saying be wary of changes, they will almost certainly feel different and maybe better at some things but quite possibly also worse at others.

 

If you want to improve handling, the easiest quick thing to do in my experience is buy the grippiest tyres you can. If you want all round grip on flatish tarmac (which most tracks are) then invest in the wider wheels. Khumo V70A tyres are the best street legal tyres i've used for grip (though they wear down super fast). If your car is track only you could consider full slicks - that would be another step up I am sure.

 

Lastly, if you genuinely want to tweak your car to suit your style I'd recommend learning how to set the geo yourself. This is the best way and will (over time) give you the best outcome, as you can set it as you like. There is a lot of scope for change if you DIY and it's not hard technically, just time consuming, but will likely yeild benefits that are just as important as spending £xxxx on some new coilovers.

 

You mention that you had some new Spitfire toe bars installed, so what settings for the rear toe do you have, in, out, shimming height? These are the metters that also have a strong influence on your cars handling...

 

HTH.

Edited by Nev, 30 March 2017 - 03:36 PM.

[siztenboots]

To be fair, they were given the wrong dimensions by a certain tuner. if you fit the exige s2 then no problems.

[Raptor]

To be fair, they were given the wrong dimensions by a certain tuner. if you fit the exige s2 then no problems.

which coilovers specifically are you referring to Steve?

[Rosssco]

 

To be fair, they were given the wrong dimensions by a certain tuner. if you fit the exige s2 then no problems.

which coilovers specifically are you referring to Steve?

 

 

Some early Nitron NTR versions were specced (according to forum lore) by a certain tuner with the wrong fully open lengths.  

[Raptor]

 

 

To be fair, they were given the wrong dimensions by a certain tuner. if you fit the exige s2 then no problems.

which coilovers specifically are you referring to Steve?

 

 

Some early Nitron NTR versions were specced (according to forum lore) by a certain tuner with the wrong fully open lengths.  

 

: - ok but have been fixed since 2014 right?

[Andy_VX]

I would agree with Nev that it's always a compromise when you're trying to get the absolute maximum out of a setup, what works well on a smooth race track will not work on a bumpy road and visa versa but I would say that the general build quality and performance on my NTR's have been very good and they've had a tough life so far. 

 

I was miss sold the 60mm NTR's originally, Nitron blamed a bad batch of valves, never found out what was really wrong with them but they were literally unusable. Sent them back and exchanged for 40's in the end, very pleased since. 

[bladerunner]

I would agree with Nev that it's always a compromise when you're trying to get the absolute maximum out of a setup, what works well on a smooth race track will not work on a bumpy road and visa versa but I would say that the general build quality and performance on my NTR's have been very good and they've had a tough life so far.    I was miss sold the 60mm NTR's originally, Nitron blamed a bad batch of valves, never found out what was really wrong with them but they were literally unusable. Sent them back and exchanged for 40's in the end, very pleased since. 

When you say unusable, what exactly do you mean ?

[Andy_VX]

Unbelievably crashy because they kept leaking