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Sequential Gearbox


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#1 prallyx

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 09:51 PM

Looking for some guidance on gearbox options for next seasons racing. I'm running a standard f23 along with a standard clutch. The clutch disc only lasted 3 events before it had to be binned and 3rd gear got a bit clunky on the last event... I need to up the ante a bit with my gearbox/clutch combo.  Playing with the idea of a sequential for my rx car or a dog gear kit along with a decent clutch to match....oh and a plated diff also. 

 

Quaife do an M32 box which will fit nicely onto my astra vxr engine and sounds like the best option with regards to mounts and shafts. I have heard bad reports of the reliability of Quaife sequentials so have looked further afield (Sadev and Tractive) big money and a lot of engineering to make work. 

 

Anyone gone down this route? Any f23 dog gear kits? Would an f20 sequential fit a vxr?

 

 

Cheers

 

 



#2 Nev

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 10:31 AM

I think there were some straight cut gear assemblies for the F23 which would be tougher. I think one company that made them was Australian (surprisingly).

 

With the F23, it's important to overfill the oil in it, many put 2 to 2.5 Litres in it to help splash the upper bearings and to help thermal capacity/cooling.

 

I briefly thought about seq boxes too, but the cost and high maintenance schedule soon put me off.



#3 siztenboots

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 10:56 AM

on a fwd setup they get a lot more airflow than on a VX , so a mocal would help

#4 BadCop

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 11:43 AM

Sequential:

 

To make it work properly with clutchless up and down expect over 30.000 € / 26.000 GBP

 

You always read about 17 to 18.000 € for a Sadev - forget it.

That's without the bell, clutch, lsd, driveshafts, mounts and most important - the controller for gearbox and a new ECU + mapping.

Upshifts alone may be easier with a "dumb" fixed time igntion cut like geartronics.

But downshifting manually (or with those crap throttle blipper solutions) will excessivly wear the sequential.

 

Keep in mind the 5.000 to 10.000€ bill for rebuilding the gearbox every year.

Also important for me: None of those gearboxes can handle over 600 Nm of torque. 

 

 

 

Dog Ring F23

 

I know two dog ring engagement "Kits" for the F23.

Both unreliable, both over 8.000 € for the kit alone.

If it brakes down they claim it was your fault in assembly of the parts...

Posted Image

 

 



#5 siztenboots

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 12:08 PM

which is why we just stick to £150 f23 gearboxes

#6 Rosssco

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 12:55 PM

Given the prices associated with some of these gearbox 'options', its it not feasible to consider heat-treatment or shot-penning of gearbox internals if individual gear failure is an issue? Plus a multi-plate clutch might be in order - I think Tilton did a suitable one for the F23 or F28 gearbox.


Edited by Rosssco, 12 December 2017 - 12:57 PM.


#7 Arno

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 01:24 PM

Looking for some guidance on gearbox options for next seasons racing. I'm running a standard f23 along with a standard clutch. The clutch disc only lasted 3 events before it had to be binned and 3rd gear got a bit clunky on the last event... I need to up the ante a bit with my gearbox/clutch combo.

For race use commonly people go for a ceramic 'puck' clutch. They don't like to be slipped, but for immediate 'on-off' engagement they are great and can last quite some time in these conditions (inversely they tend to not last long on road cars...). Even more harcore are cerametallic and carbon ones. Very short wear lifespan though.

 

Choice for an un-sprung clutch hub or a regular sprung hub on the clutch disc can also be for speed/agressiveness of engagement, but keep in mind that an unsprung hub transmits a lot more torque variations and pulses through to the gearbox and the gears tend to not like that long-term. (ditto for fitting unsprung front pulley setups that leave the torque damper out)

 

What's failing on the gearbox itself?  Gearbox oil getting cooked and smelling burnt? Or are you destroying synchro's? Are the gears themselves breaking teeth or (support) bearings on the shafts going?

 

The first issue can often be remedied with an external electric oil pump and oil cooler rad on the gearbox (usually best to trigger it via a thermostat) to keep the gear oil within it's operating temp. When adding an LSD  and especially a plate version this becomes more important as the diff and plates will also be dumping extra friction heat in the gearbox oil now. Perhaps add some ducting to the gearbox case from the bumper or grille area to help cool the case.

 

Second issue could be resolved with a dog-box, but can in some cases also be remedied with perhaps a different gear shift strategy and more precise rev-matching so the synchro's don't need to do as much work and they can last a lot longer. Not sure about the F23,but sometimes other synchro's are available that may last longer under certain use types (eg. carbon lined)

 

Of course consistent heel&toe is required anyway to make clutches and gearboxes last under race conditions.

 

When using a dogbox you definitely need to rev-match, but you also need to be 'firm' and 'direct' with your gear shifts. Dog boxes do NOT like gentle gearshifts. That's when they grind and that quickly wears the teeth on the dog rings to nothing.. Shifting is a lot quicker on a dogbox though than on a synchro setup. That's simply the nature of the beast.

 

When gear teeth are breaking or support bearings go then (unless running ridiculous power and grip so it's bending a shaft outward and sometimes breaking cases) often it's vibrations/pulses from the engine 'hammering' the gearbox parts into oblivion. Commonly seen on cars with very light weight flywheels, solid/undamped front pulleys and un-sprung clutches. On cars like this it's normal for teams to refurb gearboxes every few races and keep one or two boxes 'standby' as the internals pretty much become consumable at some point. Straight-cut gearsets can help extend the service interval, but they are very NOISY.

 

Real sequentials are  great, but also keep in mind that most of these are definitely high on the 'consumable' and very low on the 'rebuild interval' timescale so just buying and fitting one is not the end of the story but need constant upkeep.

 

Bye, Arno.



#8 siztenboots

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 03:54 PM

getrag pdk

#9 nicollow

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 07:50 PM

getrag pdk

 

Is there a dual clutch which would fit the Z22SE?!



#10 james_ly

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 11:41 AM

...

 

Bye, Arno.

 

 

Great post loads of interesting info thanks.



#11 Rosssco

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 02:12 PM

 

...

 

Bye, Arno.

 

 

Great post loads of interesting info thanks.

 

 

Standard Arno..  



#12 prallyx

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 10:55 AM

Thanks for all the info lads, 

 

I did speak too Bacci Ramano regarding there Dog kit (8k) and also there fwd sequential (15k) although they will make a suitable bell housing, input shaft and driveshafts shafts for that price also.

 

A trip to the AutoSport show in January is in order to continue the discussion!

 

 



#13 Duncan VXR

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 12:11 PM

At these kind of numbers just go vw dsg box and far easier to maintain/ repair etc if needed DG

#14 siztenboots

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 01:19 PM

At these kind of numbers just go vw dsg box and far easier to maintain/ repair etc if needed DG

yep , ^^^ , borg warner , or getrag. you will probably also end up with the abs+ecu system from the donor car too.

#15 Duncan VXR

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 02:06 PM

Make it easier and syvec ecu same as I am using on the rs3 powered renault 5. I gave up with oem ecu option on non vag car for dsg although sure could work still DG

#16 prallyx

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 07:05 PM

DSG on a Vauxhall.......  rallly

 

Although does sound like a minefield when it comes to the electrical end of things!



#17 chickendippers

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 02:28 PM

 

getrag pdk

 

Is there a dual clutch which would fit the Z22SE?!

 

Yes 






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