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Subframe Info Wanted


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#1 Spitfire Engineering

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Posted 20 July 2018 - 09:42 PM

Hi I'm trying to do further research into the stress cracking seen on the subframes but need more data.

 

If you have any images of subframe cracks can you please send them to me at spitfire.engineering@gmail.com along with  as much info as you can regarding:

The model VX/VXT

The usage, i.e serious track, ex nurses car etc

If tracked the tyre type i.e road, semi slicks etc

Mileage and tracked mileage

Any obvious severe corrosion in the area of the toe link

Any repairs or other action taken and the current situation regarding the reappearance of any cracks etc.

 

Most of this info will not be known by any one owner but as much as possible would help please.

Please keep the information first hand and not stories from a mate who knew someone who heard about ... etc   :)

Apart from the obvious reasons we would like to see if there is any other pattern to the damage especially the changes to the VX turbo subframe.

 

The good news is we will arrange a discount on a new brace should you wish, originally we have only suggested these for track machines but it looks like they may have a greater benefit helping to protect the subframe on all VX/Europa variants without the secondary issues caused by hard welding and an over stiffening of the subframe in the wrong planes.

Considering the cost to repair or replace the subframes it makes good sense to avoid or stop further damage rather than wait until it needs repairing.

 

 

Many thanks

 

:)

Gaz

 

 



#2 vocky

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 07:21 AM

I have personally seen three separate cracked NA subframes, all were cracked on the left side tower (gearbox side of the car), all were cracked just above the toe link mounting area

 

None had corrosion, all were tracked cars, semi slicks.

 

One was previously welded up and had cracked again along the edge of the weld. All three required another subframe.



#3 Spitfire Engineering

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 07:29 AM

Thanks, do you remember off hand if any of these were turbo subframes?

 

:)



#4 vocky

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 07:40 AM

all were the original NA subframes



#5 Spitfire Engineering

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 07:41 AM

all were the original NA subframes

 

Thanks.  :)



#6 FLD

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 07:58 AM

I replaced my subframe about 8 years ago. Cracked on the drivers side and had a slight wrinkle in the same area. NA subframe and car hadn't been on track at that point. Ran standard tyres. I'll see if I can find a picture.

#7 Nev

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 08:38 AM

Gaz, the whole subframe and diagonal support from the diagonal stays is not great. This was demonstrated to me when I lowered my engine in/out into the car, as the subframe visibly "sagged" by about 1" to 1.5". I was so shocked that I immediately checked for cracks in the subframe and checked the diagonal tubes + bolts to the roll hoop, but all seemed good.

 

In short I think the whole thing could be beefed up. God knows what all that sagging and rising must do to the geometry as the car weights/unweights during the course of normal driving.

 

I wish I'd taken a video of it when I was putting my engine in - it would startle most people I think.



#8 siztenboots

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 08:54 AM

airplane wings flex , they are fairly structural



#9 Tony H

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 09:30 AM

I wonder what this does to the handling more than anything.



#10 Nev

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 09:59 AM

airplane wings flex , they are fairly structural

 

Yes, but they generally don't crack and cause a major risk. Where as the VX220 subframe does - which is why we are discussing it's weaknesses.

 



#11 Spitfire Engineering

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 10:11 AM

I replaced my subframe about 8 years ago. Cracked on the drivers side and had a slight wrinkle in the same area. NA subframe and car hadn't been on track at that point. Ran standard tyres. I'll see if I can find a picture.

 

Ta



#12 Spitfire Engineering

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 10:57 AM

Gaz, the whole subframe and diagonal support from the diagonal stays is not great. This was demonstrated to me when I lowered my engine in/out into the car, as the subframe visibly "sagged" by about 1" to 1.5". I was so shocked that I immediately checked for cracks in the subframe and checked the diagonal tubes + bolts to the roll hoop, but all seemed good.

 

In short I think the whole thing could be beefed up. God knows what all that sagging and rising must do to the geometry as the car weights/unweights during the course of normal driving.

 

I wish I'd taken a video of it when I was putting my engine in - it would startle most people I think.

 

Hi Nev

Yes it does bend but it has to! If it doesn't the peak G will be much higher and it will fatigue/fail much quicker.

I know it is tempting to remember the fully braced RXT turbo SD-4 GT from the magazine and thinking this must be the way to go....

 

If you want an empirical example of this simply punch your hand in front of you quite hard, now do it with your hand against a wall  :)

In the first case the forces were absorbed into the fingers and some of the energy was transferred through the wrist, then the arm, shoulder, eventually the whole body moved as well. In the second case the flesh of the fingers took all the energy from your fist and it probably hurt (assuming you were stupid enough not to know what would happen and did it anyway).

 

I don't want to spend too much time in discussion as the main aim is to collate so we can get a clearer picture of the failures.

It's probably easier to think of the subframe as a structured 3D spring rather than a rigid structure? for sure if you try to support any section of said spring then another part of the spring has to absorb the force instead, this is on top of the forces it was already dealing with and this usually results in a reduction in the time before the spring fatigues and fails.

it's very hard if not impossible to calculate where and for how long stresses are applied to certain sections without a full analysis so it's easier, cheaper, lighter and much safer to work around the problem rather than tackle it at the complex spring level. If we can reduce applying certain forces to the known weaker sections in the first place we can protect the subframe where it is weak and ensure it still acts as a spring everywhere else but if you attempt to do this with 2D or 3D stiffening close to the weak section you simply create new twists and bends around the section you are trying to protect.

 

It's fair to say Lotus put a lot of time and money into these structures so they have been very well analysed to a high level of competency and are not too far off optimum, the advances in tyres, regular track work and the high life cycle of a desirable car all negatively contribute as does the not ideal protection from the elements.

 

We plan to have a small amount of analysis done, mainly to confirm or reject some thoughts but first we really need as much info as possible to identify the patterns.

 

Thanks all

 

:)

Gaz



#13 Firthy

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 11:56 AM

Hi Gaz,

Can you share a picture of your brace, how it fits and if it will work with a tullet exhaust?

Cost would also be useful!

Firthy

#14 Spitfire Engineering

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 12:20 PM

Hi Gaz,

Can you share a picture of your brace, how it fits and if it will work with a tullet exhaust?

Cost would also be useful!

Firthy

 

If you give me a couple of days please I'm just checking something out with the analyst and also writing a new brace fitting guide as it is not certain the brace will fit any particular car, though with the new options most will be covered.

 

Probably going to do an offer on these .......

 

More soon

:)

Gaz



#15 The Batman

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 12:25 PM

One was previously welded up and had cracked again along the edge of the weld. All three required another subframe.


This car you’re talking about had a minor crash involving that wheel!

#16 Johnboyhgt

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Posted 22 July 2018 - 08:00 PM

One here from a turbo for sale on eBay.
Cracked too.

https://rover.ebay.c...tm/302806461909

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#17 Spitfire Engineering

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 07:56 AM

 

Hi Gaz,

Can you share a picture of your brace, how it fits and if it will work with a tullet exhaust?

Cost would also be useful!

Firthy

 

If you give me a couple of days please I'm just checking something out with the analyst and also writing a new brace fitting guide as it is not certain the brace will fit any particular car, though with the new options most will be covered.

 

Probably going to do an offer on these .......

 

More soon

:)

Gaz

 

 

OK, we are more than happy with the brace design and that this is the way to go regarding the brace on the VX.

I have produced a PDF which will be on the website soon but I can send a copy in the meantime, this explains all the options for fitting and how the brace actually works and just as important what it will not do.

 

Plan A if these is enough interest to make a small batch for the forum members at a reduced price, otherwise they will appear on the site in about a couple of weeks.

 

There are two mounting options, internal are rear mounted the latter fit like this with 3 different collets available to adjust the distance back from the subframe.

Drop me a U2U please if you want more info etc

 

:)

Attached Files



#18 siztenboots

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 08:17 AM

I think I have one of your spitfire brace bars from a few years back , never got it fitted then as I had a 3" system, but think this will be fine with the oem system now. I will get a pic up later.



#19 Spitfire Engineering

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 08:31 AM

I think I have one of your spitfire brace bars from a few years back , never got it fitted then as I had a 3" system, but think this will be fine with the oem system now. I will get a pic up later.

 

I think that would be really wise thing to do in light of the information received, we would now recommend fitting it even if you don't intend to track as the protection for the subframe is a greater benefit than the tightening of the rear end when on track.

If the original brace still does not fit due to the large 27mm diameter then the new one has offers more clearance at 16mm and it is quite a bit lighter as well as a small bonus.

 

Remind me of your email and I will send you the pdf

 

:)



#20 mailtec

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 09:12 AM

Hi Gaz

 

I would like to be on the list for Plan A please






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