42 replies to this topic

[coldel]

OK, I know this seems to be common knowledge, was just about to invest in either a spitfire or Eliseparts kit but then whilst doing some last bits of searching came across this thread where a few members suggest just buying OEM toe link joints instead of the whole kit. http://www.vx220.org...-phoenix/page-2

 

I have slightly wider than standard tyres on the VXT. I might do a track day or two this year, I am running standard power and not a fast driver by any means. Would buying something like this be a better option for my usage? https://www.vx220par...toe-link-joint/ is that the correct part that is meant to fail?

 

Again apologies if this is repeating, I know you guys know your stuff, which is why I seek knowledge! 

Edited by coldel, 24 June 2019 - 08:31 PM.

[The Batman]

if it was me i would just chuck some eliseparts toe links on, good thing to ad to the list for resell aswell

[coldel]

So just the ones I linked above yes?


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[Spitfire Engineering]

OK, I know this seems to be common knowledge, was just about to invest in either a spitfire or Eliseparts kit but then whilst doing some last bits of searching came across this thread where a few members suggest just buying OEM toe link joints instead of the whole kit. http://www.vx220.org...-phoenix/page-2

 

I have slightly wider than standard tyres on the VXT. I might do a track day or two this year, I am running standard power and not a fast driver by any means. Would buying something like this be a better option for my usage? https://www.vx220par...toe-link-joint/ is that the correct part that is meant to fail?

 

Again apologies if this is repeating, I know you guys know your stuff, which is why I seek knowledge! 

 

The first question is are you planning to keep the car?

 

In response to the "meant to fail" question, they are certainly not meant to fail while driving. The frangibility function is designed to work at much higher forces than can be generated by handling, the fact that they do is due to a combination of reasons but this was not the intention with the design.

 

Edited by Spitfire Engineering, 24 June 2019 - 10:51 PM.

[Steviejay]

Well I was in the same boat and for the small extra amount for the build quality and quality of materials it seemed a no brained to me.

I can also say that the customer service from spitfire is second to none.

I ordered a set from them on Friday and Gaz bent over backwards to answer my questions and I can honestly say my experience with them was great and I feel that these links will be a great safety addition and selling point if and when I sell it in the future.

I had to push it financially to get them but I'm happy I did.

[Steviejay]

I also have semi slicks and a stage 2 turbo so this upgrade is ideal for me.
Was also advised by others who had them.

But it's each to their own of course

[coldel]

I intend to keep the car yes. Financially it’s a big difference of over 300 quid. I have Kumho tyres on might do a track day this year but probably only once.


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[jonnyboy]

Just get Spitfire.

They are the only ones you won't be replacing bearings on and the only ones with a zero failure rate.

[Steviejay]

I intend to keep the car yes. Financially it’s a big difference of over 300 quid. I have Kumho tyres on might do a track day this year but probably only once.


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Give Gaz a call he's not pushy at all and he will go through the quality.

It's a bit extra but the difference in quality is meant to be second to none.

It's peace of mind and such an important component on cars this age now.
Read a lot of horror stories about the close calls and for peace of mind (for me anyway) I thought it was justified.
You will get it back when you sell it because they appear to be the ones to have.

Mine get gotten Thursday hopefully, and then I can just tick that box and know it's done.

[aquilaproejct]

Plus one for Spitfire. Do it once and forget about it. Worth the piece of mind. Plus they are a really nice bit of engineering and build quality is superb!

[markanswrth]

If you're keeping the car go for the spitfires. I had the same questions as you a couple of years back and went for the Spitfires, they still look brand new and I will probably outlast the car! 

[coldel]

Thanks I will have a think about it. I get that they are meant to be good but the cost difference is the price of a seat refurb and if I am never going to need that level of engineering...but get what you are saying about buy and forget.


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[sford]

Seat refurb for how cheap?? I went with the spitfire option and added on the brace bar. Don't forget to factor in a geo when you fit them/get them fitted. The price difference isn't that big and the spitfire ones really are well made. 

[Johnboyhgt]

Spitfire and brace bar here.

[coldel]

Each seat is £300 to refurb. I will be driving the car 99% on the road on the track day will be on standard road tyres, if I end up doing it I haven't decided yet. I just wonder how many non-tracked cars have had these parts fail on the road to justify £400 plus fitting.

 

 

[Spitfire Engineering]

Each seat is £300 to refurb. I will be driving the car 99% on the road on the track day will be on standard road tyres, if I end up doing it I haven't decided yet. I just wonder how many non-tracked cars have had these parts fail on the road to justify £400 plus fitting.

 

Most fail on the road.

Despite the higher cornering induced G, about 1.8 is the highest I have ever seen, it is usually smooth, this does not compare to the 20G peak/ short duration loads applied when you hit the curb, the worst case is when the curb height allows the wheel to hit rather than the tyre which offers some buffer protection with a greatly reduced peak G albeit for a longer duration, i.e >250ms

If you trawl through the SELOC and this site's archives for the last 20 years you will find hundreds of examples of OE toe link detachment.

The reason why the track failures seem so high is they are often filmed/or discussed on the forums.

Failure is not just about loads, there are other factors with wear and corrosion being high on the list, as with anything it is usually a combination of factors including fatigue.

 

The project to reinforce the toe links in the first place came from Lotus themselves with the Motorsport kit.

 

Also worth checking these out if you have the time..

http://www.vx220.org...ed/?hl=subframe

http://www.vx220.org...ed/?hl=subframe

Edited by Spitfire Engineering, 25 June 2019 - 09:34 AM.

[oakmere]

I think the splitfire option as the best and I doubt many will argue this. But for a road car I think the original joints are fine. It would be interesting how many failures are due to curb impact or failing joints that have not been replaced ( they start to get creaky if dry)?
If you have the cash Splitfire if not regularly check your originals and replace if worn or damaged.

[Arno]

Failure is not just about loads, there are other factors with wear and corrosion being high on the list, as with anything it is usually a combination of factors including fatigue.

Yup.. Issue with theh OEM ones is that they tend to age badly with the balljoints wanting to seize up as the biggest failure mode. (I guess because it's a pre-stressed balljoint design that 'clamps' the ball)

 

Tell-tale early indication squeeks from the rear when going over bumps are often mis-interpreted and when the squeeking goes away (and the joint has pretty much seized) it starts to bend/flex on the thinnest part which usually is on the threaded shanks. After a while this fatigues and the link breaks. All without big bangs/hits on the system.

 

The OEM joints should really be considered a check-and-replace item. Check on each service and replace when not moving smoothly anymore.

 

Bye, Arno.

[coldel]

Thanks everyone, will go have a think, like I say the cost difference is not small (around £350) and given I drive the car on average around <50 miles a week on the road it would require a serious road incident to break replacement OEM ones. But again thanks, it has cleared up a few things I was mulling over. 

[Spitfire Engineering]

 

Failure is not just about loads, there are other factors with wear and corrosion being high on the list, as with anything it is usually a combination of factors including fatigue.

Yup.. Issue with theh OEM ones is that they tend to age badly with the balljoints wanting to seize up as the biggest failure mode. (I guess because it's a pre-stressed balljoint design that 'clamps' the ball)

 

Tell-tale early indication squeeks from the rear when going over bumps are often mis-interpreted and when the squeeking goes away (and the joint has pretty much seized) it starts to bend/flex on the thinnest part which usually is on the threaded shanks. After a while this fatigues and the link breaks. All without big bangs/hits on the system.

 

The OEM joints should really be considered a check-and-replace item. Check on each service and replace when not moving smoothly anymore.

 

Bye, Arno.

 

 

This would be a good confirmatory check if failures were limited to the single mode you mention Arno, but you also have the opposite failure where the plastic liner inside the housing wears without losing the grease and remains free to rotate, if the liner is worn sufficiently the entire link and ball joint housing can detach from the ball with a single high impact event.

This failure is usually seen on the inner joint as the rearward angle of the toe link is assisting the detachment.

 

So now it cannot be too tight and it cannot be too loose! and you also need the experience to know if either margin is being approached.

The plethora of low-quality joints on the market is not helping with high wear rates and the initial build quality/tolerance issues.

These seem much higher now than was seen, 10, 20 years ago.