613 replies to this topic

[Zoobeef]

Itll get interesting when a company tells someone to come to work and they say they can't because of child care. They'll probably try harder to find some child care when the company says they can have it as unpaid holiday then.

 

Sturgeon will try as hard as she can to rock the boat hence announcing before boris and effectively trying to force his hand. I assume he's spoke with both devolved governments but they've decided on their own plans.

In Boris's speech he mentioned all the nations and him saying Scotland first on the list won't have been by accident. It's basically saying to the scottish people he's considering them but its their FM thats keeping the restrictions.

[techieboy]

It is all very vague though, and totally out of line with Wales/Scotland/NI so no idea why he was claiming that he was conferring with the devolved governments because he clearly hasn't. I'm also really confused as to why the other nations are announcing before Boris, surely it's possible for them all to release their statements at the same time via localised TV stations to ensure that we don't get this ridiculous speculation in between Sturgeon making her announcement and Boris making his - I don't think we have ever been such an un-United Kingdom.

 

 

It's only vague or obtuse if you want it to be. It's perfectly clear for me. Carry on working from home if you can. Go back to work if your employer is operating and has implemented recommended distancing measures for their business sector. Ease the burden on and your risk on a much limited public transport system by using an alternative where you can. Feel free to go outside as often as you want but keep your distance from others. Over the coming days/weeks, we'll try to gradually allow more things to reopen, like limited school access but that will still need distancing to apply and above all it will be governed by the "R" rate - so be prepared for garden centres to be closed down again in 10 days time if you nuggets take the p*ss and don't follow the advice like the grown ups you were all claiming to be over the last few weeks, when demanding a roadmap. Stay alert to the risks. Simples.

 

Conferring doesn't imply consensus. Scotland and Wales are in a different place along the path anyway (a week? behind the UK). I'm pretty sure the poison dwarf didn't consult Westminster when she announced her Scottish roadmap last Wednesday/Thursday/whenever it was in order to make her government look good to the detriment of the scheduled UK government announcement. Nor should the advice for 90% of the UK's population be driven by what suits Scotland's separatists.

[coldel]

Its vague because it doesn't make sense. You cannot work if you have kids. You cannot work if you cannot reasonably use public transport (there isn't enough, you cannot socially distance, its pointless anyway as trains, tubes and buses all use air con which recirculates the air) and some sort of call out to 'walking to work' is nigh on ridiculous, its not aligned with the rest of the union, plenty of people live and work in different parts of the union. It wont work because people will take the p155 what other outcome are we expecting? When we were locked down people were flooding parks and having picnics, now its all been given the green light coupled with sunny weather its going to be a mass outpouring of people onto the public spaces, social distancing will be a farce.

 

He opened by saying how important the lockdown has been, that we need to make very tentative steps back out of it, but this announcement is pretty much saying everyone can go outside, as much as they like, and spend as much time in open spaces talking to whoever they wish to meet up with - that is not small steps, that is not the half a lockdown rating step, thats moving from 4 to 2 overnight.

[coldel]

Itll get interesting when a company tells someone to come to work and they say they can't because of child care. They'll probably try harder to find some child care when the company says they can have it as unpaid holiday then.

 

Sturgeon will try as hard as she can to rock the boat hence announcing before boris and effectively trying to force his hand. I assume he's spoke with both devolved governments but they've decided on their own plans.

In Boris's speech he mentioned all the nations and him saying Scotland first on the list won't have been by accident. It's basically saying to the scottish people he's considering them but its their FM thats keeping the restrictions.

 

Yep the whole children thing is going to be difficult, you can see some serious legal issues coming about if a person is told they aren't being paid because they are not coming into work because the schools are closed. Companies also need to be really careful, if someone is told to come into work, catches C19 and dies because they are there. Legal ramifications are well and truly present.

 

The onus really is on business to muddle their way through, the government advice on the face of it so far is vague as it doesn't apply to large majorities of the community and offers little information on what to do if it doesn't work for you (unless that 50 pager has something in there - legally can a company not pay you for not turning up for instance?).

[oblomov]

New Corvid19 restriction easing from Doris.

https://www.youtube....u4#action=share

 

[techieboy]

Its vague because it doesn't make sense. You cannot work if you have kids. You cannot work if you cannot reasonably use public transport (there isn't enough, you cannot socially distance, its pointless anyway as trains, tubes and buses all use air con which recirculates the air) and some sort of call out to 'walking to work' is nigh on ridiculous, its not aligned with the rest of the union, plenty of people live and work in different parts of the union. It wont work because people will take the p155 what other outcome are we expecting? When we were locked down people were flooding parks and having picnics, now its all been given the green light coupled with sunny weather its going to be a mass outpouring of people onto the public spaces, social distancing will be a farce.

He opened by saying how important the lockdown has been, that we need to make very tentative steps back out of it, but this announcement is pretty much saying everyone can go outside, as much as they like, and spend as much time in open spaces talking to whoever they wish to meet up with - that is not small steps, that is not the half a lockdown rating step, thats moving from 4 to 2 overnight.

It makes perfect sense. Maybe you're hatred of all things Boris just means you don't want it to and you'd prefer the Piers Morgan "shock and outrage" approach to life?

Yes, people with kids might struggle. Just like they did to varying degrees in January and before. Just like they do during summer holidays. Maybe one parent or another might need to stay home in the interim. Maybe they'll have to try to come to some arrangement with their employers whilst schools are only partially opened. I don't know. There is no absolutely perfect solution to either implementing a lockdown or easing it back that will suit everybody and every scenario; even in a totalitarian state, let alone a western liberal society.

 

For weeks on end, driven by the perpetual motion machine that is the traditional media/social media interface egging each other on and winding each other up, people have demanded to be treated as adults (despite constantly proving they can't do what is already required of them) and to be given a roadmap. Now they have an outline map, which because this isn't a closed stage rally with only one route through it, has a number of different routes, stopping places along en-route and ETA's, it's not good enough and it's not clear enough.

What would you have the government do? Total lockdown for 3 years until a viable vaccine has been developed, manufactured in the necessary numbers and the required (to eradicate a virus) 90%+ of the population have been given the shot after all of the fcukbook/youtuber anti-vaxxers have had their say - and fingers crossed COVID-19 hasn't mutated enough to nullify whatever vaccine has been developed in the interim. Do we just carry on destroying the economy whilst paying everyone 80% of their wage ad infinitum whilst they all take debt repayment holidays for a long as they want? The longer this goes on, the less there will be to come out of lockdown for.

The fact is public transport has always been a cesspit and should be avoided where you can anyway. Given the current climate, you should use any other method in preference. If you do have to use it, then you manage your risk and take personal responsibility instead of relying on some other body to manage it for you. You wear a mask/face covering, you do avoid touching things unnecessarily, you do wash your hands at every opportunity and avoid touching your face. Just like it's been all the way through the lockdown up to this point. For most of the country, public transport has never been an option anyway as it's a London and city specific thing. After 20 years of commuting, I've worked from home for the last 10 years so effectively no difference for me (or my wife who was down to only 1 day a week in the office) anyway. I've been down to the City twice in the last 4 weeks to our datacentre and whereas I'd normally go by train and walk from St Pancras or Farringdon, I've driven (and had to pay City NCP rates ) and other than there being no street food markets operating and the Pret outside the datacentre being closed it's largely been as normal people wise, except the temperature check at the security desk. I've also had to drive up to my office in Chester twice (M6 all but deserted the first time and noticably busier the week before last) in the same period for, ironically, the first time in 2 years - we're permanently closing the office down as a result of this whole thing and basing the remaining people at home for the short/medium term.

 

As far as I'm concerned, nothing has really changed. I won't be doing anything next Monday that I wasn't doing last Monday. Until the pubs and restaurants re-open, it's still a lockdown as far as I'm concerned.

 

I don't care what Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland do. Unfortunately, that's their business thanks to devolution. What shouldn't happen is that they drive what happens to the 90% of the population that aren't devolved.

Lets see what the rules are later this afternoon.....

[coldel]

That therein, is the problem. Because nothing has changed for you, you cannot see the challenges of others which they have been struggling with.

 

People with kids will struggle, not might, will, the comparison to January or summer holidays is completely irrelevant - summer holidays people rely on paid for child care and family networks, neither are allowed right now or for the near future. What are you doing to complete the 5 hours of home schooling with younger children each day? What if you have 2 or more children? What if you partner is a key worker and not able to be present at home when you aren't there. What if you are a single parent. These are all relevant things to ask which will link into the below...

 

Again, I have not read the document outlining the detail but my initial concerns are - lets all go back to work if you cannot work from home. The process goes thus:

 

- Is my company complying with the rules outlined yesterday, what if it doesn't have its accreditation yet but still wants me to work

- My company has its social distancing practices in place but I have a child at home with no child care, what are my rights

- I need to get public transport where social distancing isn't possible, its not viable to walk or cycle, my company is open and wants me to work I cannot work from home, what are my rights

- I believe I can do my job from home my boss says I need to be at the workplace but I feel unsafe there or on the journey there and gives me a warning, what are my rights

 

So on and so forth. I hope the document outlines workers rights, would be happy to hear anyone that has read in detail what rights workers have to ensure they are treated fairly.

 

From what I have seen so far the guidance is workers should be 'actively encouraged' to return to work. But also says those businesses that are allowed to open, should be open. There is no updated clarity on workers rights, businesses obligations, and possible new working conflicts. As I said, this has been left to business to muddle through a potentially legal quagmire.

 

"Actively Encouraged" is not clear, its vague. As above.

 

As for the unlimited out and about advice, people are going to take the absolute p155. Its going to be 20 degrees and sunny this weekend its going to be a car crash of people spilling out into public places. How are the police going to walk into a park and see ten thousand people milling about and work out who is same household or socially distancing with one friend. This did not need such a drastic change at the same time as trying to get people back into work. I get that this is on us, to be responsible, but given that we couldn't responsibly shop without buying a million toilet rolls, or responsibly do one hour of exercise etc. per day - this is a green light for packed beaches, parks and public spaces. 

[coldel]

As it happens PM has just said in parliament that workplace and education announcements will be made later today and tomorrow to give clarity, which is exactly what is needed 

 

[Zoobeef]

Blyton Park has announced today that they are restarting.

[PaulCP]

In recent weeks I have come to the conclusion that, whilst calling for the Govt to treat the British public like adults, the media etc can only assume the British public are only capable of acting on firm instructions and are not capable of interpreting guidelines. It may just be me but how this media reaction translates into treating the public like adults is beyond my powers of comprehension. Most of the so called confusion emanates from the media stirring things up.
Too much selective hearing and reading by omitting to hear and read all of the words, just pick the bits out of a sentence that you want to make a new sentence. For example “It may be possible for primary schools for some pupils to reopen by 1st June” gets translated to “All primary schools will reopen 1st June”

 

All of this “the message is too vague” and “the message is confusing” merely confirms that many people in this country now can only take direct instructions and have lost the ability to use common sense. We know this to be true since many no longer believe that an individual should take responsibility for their own actions, they always need to find someone else to blame.

 

Piers Morgan this morning, “so it’s ok to meet strangers in the park but not members of your own family”. What a fcukwit first class tosser that guy really is.

Edited by PaulCP, 11 May 2020 - 06:45 PM.

[fiveoclock]

Everyone back to work, except schools are still closed so you can't if you have children and no one to look after them. Avoid public transport if going back to work. So in effect, any single people that live within walking distance of their place of work, crack on, otherwise as you were.

It is all very vague though, and totally out of line with Wales/Scotland/NI so no idea why he was claiming that he was conferring with the devolved governments because he clearly hasn't. I'm also really confused as to why the other nations are announcing before Boris, surely it's possible for them all to release their statements at the same time via localised TV stations to ensure that we don't get this ridiculous speculation in between Sturgeon making her announcement and Boris making his - I don't think we have ever been such an un-United Kingdom.

You shouldn't use schools as child care, parents get told this over and over again and it's only confusing if all a person does is listen to the PM for ten minutes and expect everything to be laid out for them. There's a 50 page document that's very specific, I've read it and it's easy to pick out the parts that relate to the individual. If people can't be arsed to read a document to educate themselves about something as important as this issue then they deserve to be confused.

[fiveoclock]

In recent weeks I have come to the conclusion that, whilst calling for the Govt to treat the British public like adults, the media etc can only assume the British public are only capable of acting on firm instructions and are not capable of interpreting guidelines. It may just be me but how this media reaction translates into treating the public like adults is beyond my powers of comprehension. Most of the so called confusion emanates from the media stirring things up.
Too much selective hearing and reading by omitting to hear and read all of the words, just pick the bits out of a sentence that you want to make a new sentence. For example “It may be possible for primary schools for some pupils to reopen by 1st June” gets translated to “All primary schools will reopen 1st June”

All of this “the message is too vague” and “the message is confusing” merely confirms that many people in this country now can only take direct instructions and have lost the ability to use common sense. We know this to be true since many no longer believe that an individual should take responsibility for their own actions, they always need to find someone else to blame.

Piers Morgan this morning, “so it’s ok to meet strangers in the park but not members of your own family”. What a fcukwit first class tosser that guy really is.

Radio 5 female presenter today speaking to a teacher's representative "so what do you feel about schools being told they can re-open on 1st June"? The teachers representative told her that what was actually said was some schools could open in early June depending on the science. She couldn't see or admit she could see the difference.

[coldel]

 

Everyone back to work, except schools are still closed so you can't if you have children and no one to look after them. Avoid public transport if going back to work. So in effect, any single people that live within walking distance of their place of work, crack on, otherwise as you were.

It is all very vague though, and totally out of line with Wales/Scotland/NI so no idea why he was claiming that he was conferring with the devolved governments because he clearly hasn't. I'm also really confused as to why the other nations are announcing before Boris, surely it's possible for them all to release their statements at the same time via localised TV stations to ensure that we don't get this ridiculous speculation in between Sturgeon making her announcement and Boris making his - I don't think we have ever been such an un-United Kingdom.

You shouldn't use schools as child care, parents get told this over and over again and it's only confusing if all a person does is listen to the PM for ten minutes and expect everything to be laid out for them. There's a 50 page document that's very specific, I've read it and it's easy to pick out the parts that relate to the individual. If people can't be arsed to read a document to educate themselves about something as important as this issue then they deserve to be confused.

 

 

People do not use schools as child care, people have set up their working lives based on their child being at school during the week. To then expect a person to go back to work, with their child not at school, with no availability of child care to replace school, and with no allowance for children to be with any support network - what is the solution? Its a genuine question, what is the solution that allows people to return to work? 

 

Here's how it went. Boris does a ten minuter which is vague (and rightfully satirised in the media), he doesn't mention anything about a 50 pager. We find out via the media later that night there is a paper being released with clarity. Good. Paper released outlines opening up of business and a rough outline of schools, other industries etc. As suspected any issues which will come about for employees to get back to work (have already mentioned issues previously which are real for many people if not yourself but that does not mean they aren't legitimate) are to be raised with the employer and employee and are not covered in the 50 pager (hence the demand for clarity). This does open up a lot of issues around the legal rights of an employee when they are under a government lock-down that affects their ability to work and any potential conflict that results. 

[PaulCP]

There's a 50 page document that's very specific, I've read it and it's easy to pick out the parts that relate to the individual. If people can't be arsed to read a document to educate themselves about something as important as this issue then they deserve to be confused.

That’s why everything falls apart and where a lot of this so called “confusion” comes from, many people these days only read what their mates think on social media.

 

 

[coldel]

 

There's a 50 page document that's very specific, I've read it and it's easy to pick out the parts that relate to the individual. If people can't be arsed to read a document to educate themselves about something as important as this issue then they deserve to be confused.

That’s why everything falls apart and where a lot of this so called “confusion” comes from, many people these days only read what their mates think on social media.

 

 

I often see the same with people that are not parents who think they understand the challenges associated with it. That because it's ok for them it's ok for everyone else.

[Rosssco]

 

There's a 50 page document that's very specific, I've read it and it's easy to pick out the parts that relate to the individual. If people can't be arsed to read a document to educate themselves about something as important as this issue then they deserve to be confused.

That’s why everything falls apart and where a lot of this so called “confusion” comes from, many people these days only read what their mates think on social media.

 

 

 

The confusion seems to be as much to do with the style of the messaging, and the fact that the (UK) government is attempting to transition from "do what you're told" to "Make some decisions for yourself". Problem being when you've infantilised a populations with simple three word statements, it can then be difficult to get people to think for themselves.

 

​Just as the government will have to try and unpick climate of (unjustified) fear that it and the traditional media have built and very effectively used as a suppression tool. That might be more difficult.

[coldel]

Until the government says 'as you were' the public still need guidance on what they should and should not be doing - its easy to think that its laziness that is causing the public to ask for clarity, but the situation is and still is that we are under a form of lock-down and clarity is an absolute must if back to work is to be implemented properly. 

 

I get that some people glaze over when it comes to issues like workers rights and the obligations of employers but they are fundamental and core to what going back to work is all about. I get for some people its simple, they get back in the car and drive to work and have no other responsibilities other than themselves, that is not typical of the population though and being much more broad minded of the wider population outside of your own bubble is required. 

[FLD]

This is an interesting debate.  Personally I thought the issued address was fine and that people just needed to engage their brain to determine what they should do.  I work in medical research (inc currently antivirals) so this seems common sense to me.  Are the general public really unable to work things out such that they need to be spoon fed for each of their individual circumstance?  Can people not think?!  This just bakes my head and I wonder if it's my own situation that has given me the ability to act appropriately. 

 

My first thought on the back to work thing is that you contact your employer, do risk assessments, put measures in place etc rather than just swan in, sit down and carry on.  Obviously employers will need to consider childcare etc but this is all just part of a discussion process that I find obvious.  Do people not find it obvious? 

[coldel]

This is an interesting debate.  Personally I thought the issued address was fine and that people just needed to engage their brain to determine what they should do.  I work in medical research (inc currently antivirals) so this seems common sense to me.  Are the general public really unable to work things out such that they need to be spoon fed for each of their individual circumstance?  Can people not think?!  This just bakes my head and I wonder if it's my own situation that has given me the ability to act appropriately. 

 

My first thought on the back to work thing is that you contact your employer, do risk assessments, put measures in place etc rather than just swan in, sit down and carry on.  Obviously employers will need to consider childcare etc but this is all just part of a discussion process that I find obvious.  Do people not find it obvious? 

 

It's obvious if it doesn't have an effect on someone personally. The 'im alright jack' trait has never been more prevalent. Especially when people are viewing from afar whilst working for a company that has a HR department that looks after employee wellbeing and everything is done above board. 

 

Will employers act in a reasonable and flexible manner? That is not a given. Will employees be able to get to work, or be able to work when their place of work is open? At the moment this is debatable. People can think for themselves, in fact its this exact behaviour that is causing them to call out the simplicity of the government message and the impact it has on their personal circumstances. You already have to look at the multitude of cases where furloughed staff were pressured into working whilst on furlough for example. 

 

There should be much improved emergency protection for employees who cannot get back to work because of government measures be it public transport reduction or childcare issues or the like. Conversely there should be protection for employers who face the challenge of ensuring a 'Covid-Secure' workplace.

[coldel]

Anyway feels like we are going round in circles on this. I think the next step is to let this play out, and see what happens to R - whatever you think of the clarity of the instructions if that goes back up (watching Germany with interest because they are seeing a rise in cases again) it's all irrelevant and we go back to lock-down stage 4.