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Interesting Engine Pictures (Z22Se Related)


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#1 blackoctagon

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Posted 05 May 2020 - 07:29 PM

I am in the process of making some changes to my engine and i've been looking at bits of weight saving and lowering COG.

I was watching Jonny Smith's CarPervert Youtube channel and saw this video:


It's a nice watch generally if you like engineering, but if you skip to 4:13 you get to see some really nice Ecotec family 2.0l turbo engines from (possibly older I suspect because no one shows off new kit) touring cars. The appear to have VVT heads and DI so i'm guessing they are LNF based.

The have some pictures here: https://swindonpower...uk/engines.aspx
Many things caught my eye but one that stood out was that the rallycross variant appears to use the standard alternator and position, while the TOCA engine uses a smaller alternator and in the air-con aompressor location.

One Corsa alternator later and that is my week sorted for a nice car job.


There have been previous threads before that show other views more, but are from before my VX220-owning time:
http://www.vx220.org...ne-orientation/
http://www.vx220.org...engine-is-this/

#2 Exmantaa

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Posted 09 May 2020 - 12:54 PM

Search here on A20NHT engine. There is a whole thread in Projects about this turbo engine build in a VX.

 

http://www.vx220.org...andalone-a20nft


Edited by Exmantaa, 09 May 2020 - 12:56 PM.


#3 blackoctagon

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Posted 10 May 2020 - 09:45 PM

Thank you for the link. The a20nft looks like an engine to look into as it runs VVT, which interests me.

#4 Rosssco

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 09:23 AM

Thank you for the link. The a20nft looks like an engine to look into as it runs VVT, which interests me.

 
You can buy a complete new engine for not much:

 

https://www.ebay.co....6ffaa1c34|iid:1

 

As per project link, speak to Dominik (Badcop) who can supply an ECU to get you going.



#5 Exmantaa

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 06:32 PM

I actually have one new in my garage. Mostly collecting dust on the GM crate, so if someone is interested... Have an E39 ecu & custom wiring loom too. :happy:



#6 blackoctagon

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 10:11 AM

Actually running a turbocharged engine is not my goal.
Getting a high revving N/A 2.2 is my target, but with VVT and my own manifold to help the torque curve.

The issue (amongst others) so far has been controlling the VVT - the z22se GMPT15 PCM will not do it, so I may have to dip into a20nft's ECU, or look at some of the US models.

#7 Arno

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 11:30 AM

Getting a high revving N/A 2.2 is my target, but with VVT and my own manifold to help the torque curve.

 

If you want to chase N/A power and use VVT on an 2.2 then perhaps look at an Alfa 2.2JTS engine:

 

440px-Alfa_Romeo_Spider_2%2C2_JTS_2007_e

 

That has it already and is basically the same engine as the Z22SE (Europe) and L61 (USA). Intake manifold could be a little tricky space-wise without modifications to the firewall.

 

No idea if the ECU Alfa used has been cracked and is made mappable or if you'd need to go to a standalone ECU though.

 

Bye, Arno.



#8 Rosssco

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 01:08 PM

The issue (amongst others) so far has been controlling the VVT - the z22se GMPT15 PCM will not do it, so I may have to dip into a20nft's ECU, or look at some of the US models.

 
You might be better looking into some of the US variants of the engine, importing a complete ECU / loom that can be modified with HP Tuners or similar software. I think there are options around the LE5 engine (2.4 VVT), but its unclear whether you could just take a cylinder head and use this, as the 2.4 had a larger bore.

 

I recall Vocky saying the VVT was also appreciably heavier than the older Z22SE head, but this was likely as much due to the VVT heads being (stronger) cast rather than lost-foam, as much as the VVT aspect

 

I think the Z22SE is fairly unique in the family as its the only one that uses the off 7-2 crank reluctor. Most use a more traditional 60-2 pattern, so you'd probably have to switch the crank for this. 

 

I think the JTS 2.2 engine is essentially the same as the Z22YH with direct injection, where as you probably want port injection to keep things simpler!



#9 blackoctagon

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 04:32 PM

Taking your comments) in order:

Arno,
I've ruled an Alfa Romeo engine out as there appears to be more different than the same in terms of a lot of parts.

The inlet manifold is not an issue as i'm trying to come up with a variable length system - i've had to move the alternator for that, and I will write about it another time.

The Alfa ECU is not one I want to get into. I am currently making my way, via the work of positive_ ( http://www.vx220.org...26259-positive/ ) through finding the various map locations of the GMPT15/z22se code, and thats taken me ages.
Although there does seem to be more written about the Bosch ECU it uses, and remappers claim to be able to get a 7300 redline, 200bhp and a decent torque spread from it. But that probably ends up with modifications to the VX220 controls and instruments, and I really prefer modifying metal than electrons.


Rossco,
I keep my eyes open for US VVT looms, but as of this discussion I am thinking I may just be better looking at an a20nft - it would give me a VVT head, a loom and, from my limited research, more compatible parts than the Alfa variant.

I truly dislike the lost foam head as it takes a lot of work to get the combustion chambers polished up, but it can take more cylinder pressure than i'll ever put in it and they are cheaply available if I need to cut one up to look at ports/water jackets/whatever.

The crank sensing is one of the things i'm trying to track down in the code.
If you know the correlation between the triggering and position of the 7-2, then you could map it out to a 60-2 arrangement. The only thing is that the sensor of the 60-2 probably has a different, finer input to the ECU (it may even relate to a 16bit table in the z22yh - not sure ), so that adds another conversion needed in the code.
I am a fan of higher resolution in measurements, but i'd be starting to bite more than I can (currently) chew.

The DI might be an issue, but if i'm doing my own manifold then thats easily overcome with injector bosses and DI bungs. I'm not afraid of DI - it was in a mature research phase when I was in powertrain R&D and it's easily 20 years old in production too - but it's added complication when i'm just indulging and playing.

Edited by blackoctagon, 13 May 2020 - 04:34 PM.


#10 Exmantaa

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Posted 15 May 2020 - 05:33 PM

Actually running a turbocharged engine is not my goal.
Getting a high revving N/A 2.2 is my target, but with VVT and my own manifold to help the torque curve.

The issue (amongst others) so far has been controlling the VVT - the z22se GMPT15 PCM will not do it, so I may have to dip into a20nft's ECU, or look at some of the US models.

 

Hmmm, a high revving powerfull 2.2 Ecotec is rare, as the head port is not really suited for this. Ports are more designed for good economy. Can become an expensive route for not much gain...

 

(If you want some high revving NA power in a VX; simply fit a hot redtop C20XE engine. :-) Basically the same mounting as the Z20LET in a Turbo.)



#11 blackoctagon

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Posted 15 May 2020 - 10:10 PM

An engine swap is not really what I want, and I own faster cars already - i'm chasing a particular behviour of engine that complements the chassis.

Apart from the air pump ports in the exhaust ports I feel them to be a good shape, albeit they should be bigger. Getting rid of the air pump ports has been tricky so far; They are not suitable for drilling and bunging, and while i am at peace with reshaping using epoxy on the inlet side i'm always nervous about the exhaust and i'll probably end up welding from the combustion chamber end then bringing it down flush.

The inlet ports main drawback to me is the injector cutaway - the LSR is a good shape, and the SSR is not too sharp and you can keep it reasonably rounded to better match the valve seat radius (although the floor is flatter than i'd enjoy), but the cutaway won't do the pressure waves much good at high RPM.
I have considered welding up the cutaway and bringing the injectors out into the manifold, but it looks like a nightmare of a job to get in there. That may be a job for the epoxy.

I should point out that i've not taken any port moulds yet, so I could find that on closer inspection i'm talking through my hat on the exhast, the inlet, or both!


I'm not a C20XE lover due to it being an iron block. I know that £3k gets an aluminium one, but it's not for me.

Your help and suggestions are very much appreciated, and i'm mindful that the internet is littered with people who have considered this already. I just want the fun.

#12 Exmantaa

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Posted 16 May 2020 - 09:00 PM

Maybe start with a 2.0 ltr saab B207 block (crankshaft) then? 86mm stroke, so you can give it some serious revs in NA form.  :sleep: 

(Although high revs does not go well with the F23 gearbox shifting )

 

I think the ecotec was used some years in the BTCC cars. Some french tuner made bespoke intake parts for this engine. (must have pics somewhere)



#13 blackoctagon

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 01:04 PM

My friend is wanting to do some work on his 120k miles SAAB 9-3 2.0t once his new company car comes in, so i'll get into the B207 parts later in the year.

If you have any references or photos i'd be grateful to see them.

#14 FLD

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Posted 18 May 2020 - 08:05 AM

IMO the exhaust port is utter shite.  The exhaust port has a sort of kink around the valve throat area.  There's a lot of work in porting these.  Think roughly where the valve guide is.  There were some pictures of a sectioned head kicking around on the Z22 site but I can't find them now.  They show this kink really clearly.  If you remove this you can also open up the port to a much larger size using an alfa exhaust gasket (sorry don't have a PN to hand).

 

I don't think the inlet is too bad although I agree with you on the injector pocket.  I imagine there would be good gains going further away from the head, especially if SC but then port runner length is an issue in the manifold.  A nice twin injector setup would be interesting.



#15 Rosssco

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Posted 18 May 2020 - 01:37 PM

I'm sure you may have picked up on this already BO, but the cams for the VVT heads have a different cam sprocket connection than the non-VVT cams (incl. orifices for the VVT actuation), meaning I don't think you can use any existing NA cams, and you're therefore restricted to modified versions of VVT cams - you may be able to re-profile (similar to what Piper do with the Stage 1 NA cams) an existing pair of VVT cams, but it would be interesting to know if there's even anything more extreme available off the shelf for NA VVT cams..

 

See Notes in the link below for confirmation:

 

http://www.crateengi...om/pdfs/ECS.pdf

 

ZZP in the US might be a useful place to enquire

 

https://zzperformanc...erformance-cams



#16 blackoctagon

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 10:51 PM

Thank you both for your responses.

FLD;
I do see the point you were talking about, but that is long gone in the previous head that came out well(see my icon/avatar. That was a blind-porting done on an old head last year for practise), but as-standard i do have to concede the point.
I will be taking my moulds either tommorow night or monday, so i'll have have something in my hand to discuss later.

Rossco;
Thank you for the links.
By the looks of it GM gave up on the 2.2 L61/z22se in 2007 and relegated it to low feature applications.

It is interesting to see the supercharged LSJ unit has the same cams as the pre-2007 L61s, but with altered timings. That would imply that the 2007 onwards L61s had a tiny bit more peak lift. With rocker ratio that would be a pleasant improvement, but it seems only the exhaust cam would actually fit. Worth an eBay look though.

The LE5 inlet cam would be nice also due to the higer lift and duration, but it also says it will not fit.
*edited* I just saw the LE5 cams. Totally different.

I'm resigned now to either having to do a full VVT head transplant and associated actuation, consider going with a whole, non-turbo-ed engine, or admitting it's a bit of a leap and focus my energies on the inlet and start there, and use higher lift fixed cams from an aftermarket source.
I'm comfortable with gas dynamics and though the camtrain is a huge part of that I can more readily develop the manifold simply because it's external to a big, hard to replicate lump of cast aluminium full of fluid passages.

Edited by blackoctagon, 23 May 2020 - 10:57 PM.





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