Jump to content


Photo

Z22Se Chain Guide - Waterpump Short Chain


  • Please log in to reply
32 replies to this topic

#21 Arno

Arno

    Need to get Out More

  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,236 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 22 February 2021 - 07:23 AM

Their solution looks like that:

9837299s-960.jpg
https://a.d-cd.net/9837299s-960.jpg

6437299s-960.jpg
https://a.d-cd.net/6437299s-960.jpg
 
Don't know what is todays price, but you can contact them directly via the web page or/and what's up number there.

 
 

Looks like a very neat install. Only thing I'd be worried about is cooking the Davies Craig waterpump (mostly the plastic housing) with the exhaust manifold also quite close in that area.
 
Would probably need some very good heat shielding/insulation around it to keep the  waterpump alive for a decent time.

 

I guess the alu version of the Davies Craig is bigger, so might not fit in such a way.

 

Bye, Arno.



#22 Vladimir

Vladimir

    Member

  • Pip
  • 115 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oslo, Norway

Posted 22 February 2021 - 09:15 AM

I'll test this solution, hopefully soon/this summer. Getting the engine assembled at the moment.



#23 blackoctagon

blackoctagon

    Member

  • Pip
  • 182 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lothian

Posted 22 February 2021 - 11:19 AM

That is a fantastic adapter plate. It really makes the EWP solution much more useful.
I suspect it's not cheap, but the integration is fantastic.
I was going to use a BMW/Pierburg on the next engine after my current build, but this would make me look at the Craig Davies again.


Vladimir,
what secondary chain tensioner are you referring to?
The camchain tesioner is in the head, and not part of block, and it's oil pathways.
The balancer tensioner is just spring tensioned (i'm confident on this as I have one on my desk here) and does not get oil fed.
Is there another part that is oil fed?

#24 blackoctagon

blackoctagon

    Member

  • Pip
  • 182 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lothian

Posted 22 February 2021 - 06:55 PM

Vladimir,
I owe you an apology - I went out to the block, took the tensioner with me and, as you said, there is an oil gallery from the bottom of the balancer shaft bearing housing that matches up with the indented section on the bottom of the tensioner.

Looking at the design of bearing carier and spring tensioner I do not think it's there to provide full hydraulic oil pressure on the tensioner - instead I believe it provides oil to act as lubrication and a damping force on the spring.
Regardless of full or partial pressure it is still an oil feed.


The GM Performance and the aftermarket kits blank the bearings fully, so this makes me think that the damping is not needed.
The pulsating forces on the balancer chain are mostly from the shafts and will be large and low frequency.
The crank and the pump do still provide oscillation but lower in magnitude and higher in frequency.
So I suspect that GM Performance made a decision not to bother with feeding the tensioner and letting the spring do the work, hence just blanking it all off.

Edited by blackoctagon, 22 February 2021 - 06:56 PM.


#25 Arno

Arno

    Need to get Out More

  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,236 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 23 February 2021 - 12:11 PM

I was going to use a BMW/Pierburg on the next engine after my current build, but this would make me look at the Craig Davies again.
 

 

Biggest advantage of the Pierbug pumps is that they are designed in an OEM setup to be used as a 100% full time waterpump and should run for many, many years.

 

Davies Craig pumps come in from the race/drag world where anything that survives a number ouf outings without fialing is fine and are often used as auxilliary or helper pumps where a failure is not such a big issue.

 

It's mostly the electric motor that's the issue here. The pierburg ones are massive compared to the davies craig offering and in electric motors 'big is better' in many cases for longevity.

 

For a dedicated waterpump in a road car I'd go with a pierburg or similar OEM offering any time. For a more track/race setup, the davies craig will be fine and a chunk lighter to boot..

 

Bye, Arno.



#26 blackoctagon

blackoctagon

    Member

  • Pip
  • 182 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lothian

Posted 23 February 2021 - 10:12 PM

I like the Pierburg solution, although I want to weigh one first and look at the power consumption - it may not be as useful as it first seems as these things are done primarliy for warm up emissions and not for crank power, and I run a smaller alternator that may not appreciate the current.
I see you can get unbranded ones from the people who probably make them on ebay, so i'll probably pick one up anyway.
That is for the next engine though.



I got the 2nd prototype chain guide in and tested:
e6812c1371056050.jpg

b0db401371056084.jpg

92154d1371056125.jpg

a91ba81371056158.jpg

Thats the final guide design and it has been sent to the manufacturers and the delivery clock has started.


These photos are of the oil feed in the left hand balancer shaft bearing housing and the transfer hole to the water pump chain tensioner.
Entry of feed:
f918841371056175.jpg

Exit of feed to tensioner
28b3321371056184.jpg

This is the bushing i've come up with to ensure the oil goes to the tensioner.
I'm not convinced GM Racing or the US aftermarket and enthusiasts bother, and by all accounts it's not a problem for the tensioner, but I can do it so I will.
6f822c1371056203.jpg

And it pops in here.
9392e71371056200.jpg

As simplified cross drilled solid bushing would also work, but I like drilling the centres out of things for weight.

Edited by blackoctagon, 23 February 2021 - 10:15 PM.


#27 2-20

2-20

    Billy No Mates

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,318 posts
  • Location:France

Posted 24 February 2021 - 08:18 PM

Very nice engineering ...
This bushing doesn't interfere with the new chain guide ?...

#28 blackoctagon

blackoctagon

    Member

  • Pip
  • 182 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lothian

Posted 24 February 2021 - 09:40 PM

The large diameter on the bush is only 2mm thick.
The production guides had a rebated section added (removed?) underneath so that anyone who uses that/similar bush solution will have clearance.
I designed it so the guide will hold the bush in place, if for some reason it ever came loose.

Although if a press-fit bush becomes loose in a 24mm thick aluminium block wall then you probably have other, more serious, problems with the engine.


I should maybe point out the bush in the photograph was not pushed all the way into the block - it was only placed for the photo.

Edited by blackoctagon, 24 February 2021 - 09:41 PM.


#29 2-20

2-20

    Billy No Mates

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,318 posts
  • Location:France

Posted 25 February 2021 - 03:05 PM

Ok thanks...
As i said very nice engineering...

#30 blackoctagon

blackoctagon

    Member

  • Pip
  • 182 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lothian

Posted 28 February 2021 - 08:30 PM

The second protoype bush was finished:

8cb5871371384253.jpg

c035c61371384300.jpg

It wont need a third protoype as this is the right design. A cross drilled bush would probably be more awkward as the oile delivery holes are not at 90 degrees, and also once the bush is in it would need drilled and gouged out or the crank to come out if there was ever cause, whereas a big centre hole lets a puller in.

I'll now make up a new bush - P2 was a working fit and not an interference fit - and shrink it in once the chain guides arrive.

#31 FLD

FLD

    WANNABE MY LOVER

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,739 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Near nantwich
  • Interests:Tugging my todger.

Posted 01 March 2021 - 09:10 AM

Are those holes radially aligned?  I'm just wondering if your oil groove could go right round making the bush an easier fabrication.  Kinda academic now I know but could help someone else out.



#32 blackoctagon

blackoctagon

    Member

  • Pip
  • 182 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lothian

Posted 01 March 2021 - 10:31 AM

The holes are slightly different sizes but they share a common edge, so you could use a full radial groove that picks them both up.
My objection to a full groove is only that it becomes an unnecessary oil resevoir, but theres an argument that says oil is lighter than aluminium so a full groove part is lighter.

If I were making these for others i'd probably do a full groove and advise and extra two teaspoons of oil.

#33 FLD

FLD

    WANNABE MY LOVER

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,739 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Near nantwich
  • Interests:Tugging my todger.

Posted 01 March 2021 - 12:21 PM

advise and extra two teaspoons of oil.

 

PMSL






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users