412 replies to this topic

[jules_s]

and courtenay are charging 7950 eu for their current suuupacharger 

If you knew how much time (money) courtenays invested in the supercharger project, you would think that was very good value for money

Sorry, no offence meant

just wondering how this package can be so much cheaper for greater torque and bhp?

[speedyK]

there should be a way to make it happen in Switzerland, Call them and they will help...

I honestly can hardly believe this, as Delta had to limit their S/C to an "official" 200bhp to get homologation – which was allegedly a long and expensive procedure. Still think it's too good to be true, but I may just ask how they think they could make this happen... driving the Delta 200bhp Speedster was great – S/C is definitely the way to go, so this should be bliss and, as you say, it seems solidly engineered.

Then there's the small matter of the instantly "lost" tuning cash if you were to sell it – but who would ever want to sell it!?!

Oh, this one is going to torture me!

[WoodenDummy]

Personally I'll never understand why they made the Turbo and didn't SC in the first place. all that effort to cool the engine. My guess is GM wanted to show off the engines in the Astra etc... As normal we're just an advert.

[Crabash]

Personally I'll never understand why they made the Turbo and didn't SC in the first place. all that effort to cool the engine.

My guess is GM wanted to show off the engines in the Astra etc... As normal we're just an advert.

I think the answer is that the only engine small enough to fit the VX220 bay that is a euro engine and more powerfull than the 2.2 is the 2.0zlet, why would they spend the extra cash on retooling, r+d, retraining for mechanic's etc etc when they have a mass produced engine that is used in astra's, vectra's and zafira's.

[#2177]

Personally I'll never understand why they made the Turbo and didn't SC in the first place.  all that effort to cool the engine.

My guess is GM wanted to show off the engines in the Astra etc...  As normal we're just an advert.

I think the answer is that the only engine small enough to fit the VX220 bay that is a euro engine and more powerfull than the 2.2 is the 2.0zlet, why would they spend the extra cash on retooling, r+d, retraining for mechanic's etc etc when they have a mass produced engine that is used in astra's, vectra's and zafira's.

GM uses Turbo in Europe and CS in US. There are a couple of superchared engines available in the US...

#2177

[vocky]

The reason gm did not put the sc in the vx220 is simple, they are saving it for the vx220 replacement, new car - new engine, which seems to be the norm these days.

[Ricky2772]

[quote name='speedyK' date='Dec 5 2004, 01:31 '] [quote name='#2177' date='Dec 4 2004, 07:06 ']there should be a Then there's the small matter of the instantly "lost" tuning cash if you were to sell it – but who would ever want to sell it!?!

Oh, this one is going to torture me! [/quote]
...still considering swapping to elise-toyota?

[speedyK]

...still considering  swapping to elise-toyota? 

Well, I wouldn't call it a simple "swap" as a lot of cash has to be found to "swap" these cars. The trade-in price for my mint N/A (with 9,000 miles with all upgrades and all options including factory hardtop) in Switz. is about £9,000. If you push them and they are keen to sell you something, then you can manage £10,800

The one to get, since I now know that you can remove the top, is the Exige – as, in Switz., bringing a 111R up to Exige spec. is just a load of hassle. However, a nicely specced Exige S2 would be around £35,000 and would only have 200bhp.

Seems crazy to spend so much to buy effectively the same chassis again without airbag (even allowing for new car warranty) . It's two steps forward but one back for a huge price – and I'm just too mean probably! What further puts me off is that neither Lotus nor anyone else seems to be developing a S/C for the Toyota engine that could fit. And 200+bhp would be desirable. It may simply not be possible. No-one on the Lotus forums seems optimistic...

So, options as I now see it are:

either: leave the Speedster in standard spec. (apart from better pads next time), exercise patience and try to save up for the, surely inevitable, Exige S3 based on the 2006 Elise S3 which will almost certainly offer good ABS and the airbag wheel I already have. No doubt it will be a little heavier, though I could live with 930-950kgs if well balanced, but hopefully it will be designed to accomodate a S/C engine with 250+bhp. That spec. plus new car warranty, better selection of (more easily approved, because factory-supplied) mods/upgrades could be enough to sway me and give me a strong enough case to gain approval from the most important authority of all (as all those who are married will understand ).

or subject myself to the nightmare of attempting to get worthwhile mods approved in draconian Switz., "throw away" my cash on tuning the Speedster and risk seeing a better Exige S3 come out that I then won't be able to pay for ,

Thorney's philosophy is get it now and enjoy it – that's good Trouble is, I am loathe to shell out my hard-earned cash when I may not be allowed to mod the car as I wish in order to achieve what the next Exige will probably offer off-the-shelf in a new and better package anyway – if I have the patience. Certainly can't afford to lose the money by modding and take a trade-in hit to by an Exige S3.

But, I would so love to have the extra power now – that's what's torturing me

[BogBrush]

I've got another option for you.... Leave Switzerland Certainly doesn't sound like a place well suited for petrolheads.

[Crabash]

Personally I'll never understand why they made the Turbo and didn't SC in the first place.  all that effort to cool the engine.

My guess is GM wanted to show off the engines in the Astra etc...  As normal we're just an advert.

I think the answer is that the only engine small enough to fit the VX220 bay that is a euro engine and more powerfull than the 2.2 is the 2.0zlet, why would they spend the extra cash on retooling, r+d, retraining for mechanic's etc etc when they have a mass produced engine that is used in astra's, vectra's and zafira's.

GM uses Turbo in Europe and CS in US. There are a couple of superchared engines available in the US...

#2177

That was my point, they are US engine's, I think that fact that you have stated it took alot of extra work to get the supercharger to fit and work how it should and the price of a conversion being more than a new engine speaks for it's self. Different standard's to work to and location of manufacture are also to be considered, and also that the zlet is a very low lag engine and therefore does not have the same characteristic that most people associate with turbo's.
Basicly the vx turbo would have cost quite abit more if it had been made with a SC engine.
Although it does sound a nice idea.

Edited by Crabash, 05 December 2004 - 04:00 PM.

[WoodenDummy]

Basicly the vx turbo would have cost quite abit more if it had been made with a SC engine.

Heaven forbid GM have to spend more money on a better suited, lighter roadster engine.

[#2177]

Personally I'll never understand why they made the Turbo and didn't SC in the first place.  all that effort to cool the engine.

My guess is GM wanted to show off the engines in the Astra etc...  As normal we're just an advert.

I think the answer is that the only engine small enough to fit the VX220 bay that is a euro engine and more powerfull than the 2.2 is the 2.0zlet, why would they spend the extra cash on retooling, r+d, retraining for mechanic's etc etc when they have a mass produced engine that is used in astra's, vectra's and zafira's.

GM uses Turbo in Europe and CS in US. There are a couple of superchared engines available in the US...

#2177

That was my point, they are US engine's, I think that fact that you have stated it took alot of extra work to get the supercharger to fit and work how it should and the price of a conversion being more than a new engine speaks for it's self. Different standard's to work to and location of manufacture are also to be considered, and also that the zlet is a very low lag engine and therefore does not have the same characteristic that most people associate with turbo's.
Basicly the vx turbo would have cost quite abit more if it had been made with a SC engine.
Although it does sound a nice idea.

Absolutely right! the one thing I find intriguing though is that even as you cannot buy the stuff in Europe the new SC engines are made in Kaiserlautern, Germany.

After all, HITEC is a very serious and professionel company according to Rickies and my experience (and some others I interviewed before we started the project) and I cannot imagine that we will be able to find something with a similar impact for a better price. I have also been struggeling with other tunings actions. Intake manifold (5HPS) exhaust (6HPS) ECU (8HPS) and you name all the others.. A lot of work,, a alot of risk.. a lot of money.. alot of trouble and not nearly the same level of impact. I decided then to put all that money together and get to the next level. Next level could have been a standard turbo..., fine but when you have a N/A a very expensive upgrade for a car, which is not very individual, or a Gruber kit for 10k and up, wow very expensive, or the DELTA kit, which I do not know of any, which worked w/o causing a lot of trouble first, uses a plastic intake, glued injectors etc.
It took me quite a while(8 months) to convince HITEC with all their SC knowledge to start the project and I personally got involved as much as I could, being an "ignorant" user w/o any prior knowledge about engines etc. I helped a little bit to find the parts to get in contact with GM at different levels.

So I think this package is a milestone...


#2177

[Crabash]

Basicly the vx turbo would have cost quite abit more if it had been made with a SC engine.

Heaven forbid GM have to spend more money on a better suited, lighter roadster engine.

GM having to spend more money on the engine is not the issue, they would only pass that cost on to us 2 fold anyway, the point is it would make the VX220 forced induction model less accesable due to price, which in turn drives the price higher because they don't sell as many. As much as we dont like it every car manufacturer (without exception) is in it for one reason, to make money, keeping us happy is a neccesary evil.
Anyway it shouldn't be long before we see all alloy 2.0 and maybe 2.2 turbo engine's which are lighter than equivalent SC engine's. You can buy an alloy block for the 2.0XE engine that saves approx 19kg, and can be bored and stroked to 2.4L but it's £3k+ before you buy all the bit's such as piston's, crank, rod's etc. But wouldn't it be nice to be able to afford to "play" with such hardware. Some may call me mad but I'm considering doing this on the 1st rebuild of my westy once it's road worthy and proven, seen as my engine build will cost in excess of 6k anyway.

[Ricky2772]

[quote name='#2177' date='Dec 5 2004, 18:28 '] [quote name='Crabash' date='Dec 5 2004, 16:05 '][or the DELTA kit, which I do not know of any, which worked w/o causing a lot of trouble first, uses a plastic intake, glued injectors etc.
So I think this package is a milestone...


#2177 [/quote]
tx god I fixed the injectors fault....
the plastic intake remains, but my tuner applied two sturdy extra brackets onto the block, so it should be now well anchored....

sure enough, being able to choose now, Hitec package SEEMS the way to go a no brainer I'd say....
yet, reliability still to be showed and proved, but according to specs, (all Opel parts) should not be a (big) issue....
(knock onwood.... )

[Crabash]

Just incase anyone is interested. "Ecotec 2.2L and 2.0L SC The Ecotec engine’s availability extends to the all-new Chevrolet Cobalt in 2005, including a 2.2L normally aspirated version and, in the Cobalt SS Supercharged, a 205 hp (152 kw) 2.0L SC supercharged version. Introduced in 2004 on the Saturn Ion Red Line, the supercharged Ecotec engine is a powerhouse for compact cars. The all-aluminum, dual overhead cam, four-cylinder 2.0L SC engine is built off the strengths of the original, naturally aspirated Ecotec 2.2L, including a four-valve cylinder head, maintenance-free chain-driven camshafts, counter-rotating balance shafts and an integrated oil cooler. Key components leveraged from the Saab 2.0L version of the Ecotec engine into the 2.0L SC engine include a direct-mount oil cooler, oil jets for piston cooling, heavy-duty pistons, stronger connecting rods, forged-steel crankshaft, larger oil sump, sodium-filled exhaust valves for improved durability and a high-strength aluminum cylinder head. An Eaton M62 supercharger is used and allows the blower to spin at a lower rpm, which improves durability and creates less noise while allowing for plenty of top-end power. Part number 12499466 List price is around $4950"

[#2177]

Part number 12499466

List price is around $4950"

Right, exactely that part number is on hold for 8 month now. We had evaluated to build this engine into the VX220, bute the cost would be enormous as many other parts like clutch etc are not part of the pack and do not fit into the VX220. The part , that you are mentioning is a Crate engine. The production engine, which you could buy now is around 7.500 USD, but then you you would have to go through alot of further mods. That is why we have decided to make the 2.2L a 2.2L SC appreciating the higher displacement and potential.


#2177 (Alexander)

[cicastol]

With Hitec SC mod what internals parts of the engine must be replaced,conn rods,pistons???

[#2177]

@cicastol: for stage 2 con rods modified for piston cooling, for stage 1 none. #2177

[Ricky2772]

Part number 12499466

List price is around $4950"

Right, exactely that part number is on hold for 8 month now. We had evaluated to build this engine into the VX220, bute the cost would be enormous as many other parts like clutch etc are not part of the pack and do not fit into the VX220. The part , that you are mentioning is a Crate engine. The production engine, which you could buy now is around 7.500 USD, but then you you would have to go through alot of further mods. That is why we have decided to make the 2.2L a 2.2L SC appreciating the higher displacement and potential.


#2177 (Alexander)

http://www.gmpartsde...&Category_ID=67
...how cheap....
looks amazingly similar, but I trust hitec when they say many changes are needed.....
it sure looks a tempting swap.....
does it use the same f23 gearbox?
if not, its impossible to install....

[#2177]

Part number 12499466

List price is around $4950"

Right, exactely that part number is on hold for 8 month now. We had evaluated to build this engine into the VX220, bute the cost would be enormous as many other parts like clutch etc are not part of the pack and do not fit into the VX220. The part , that you are mentioning is a Crate engine. The production engine, which you could buy now is around 7.500 USD, but then you you would have to go through alot of further mods. That is why we have decided to make the 2.2L a 2.2L SC appreciating the higher displacement and potential.


#2177 (Alexander)

http://www.gmpartsde...&Category_ID=67
...how cheap....
looks amazingly similar, but I trust hitec when they say many changes are needed.....
it sure looks a tempting swap.....
does it use the same f23 gearbox?
if not, its impossible to install....

Yep Ricky, when you go to the page, you will see that it has not been relased yet and when you try to order it, they do not take orders, very painful. The F23 does not fit, you would also have to swap that to a SAAB made thingy as well as a couple of other add-ons. On top of that, you would have to pay for 700US in shipping 16% VAT and 5% customs. I had contacted half of the staff of GMpartsdepot as well as GM US to get more data about the Crate engine. You can buy the production engine though for 7.5K US. The real crazy thing is that the engine is made in Germany. We tried to sign a developement contract with them in Germany to get a hold of the engine parts, but in vain. So finally we had help from GM US to identify the 50+ parts and partnumbers from over a couple of thousands to convert the 2.2L to a 2.2L SC. This includes a lot of gaskets, screws, nuts and bolts, which are slightly different than ours as well as that he whole pulley design needs an awful lot of attention. Rest assured, that HITEC had to make the many changes, I personally know quite a couple of them, but not all to make the additional parts fit. But now it is a real 2.0L style 2.2L SC. We had a look at the pistons, con rod etc, but were convinced from the developers, that a sportscar like a VX220 would not need any further internal modifications up to 300HPS. (tested)

I think, that a swap with a 10% lower power gain (205HPS) would cost us as much as 9k to 10k including the work.

#2177 (Alexander)