34 replies to this topic

[Tedj]

Just a quick one. I am running a N/A pre cat removed and Piper box. Sounds great but I am looking at putting more air into the engine. I was wondering if anyone had fitted a K&N panel filter and did it give any power gain at all? K&N claim it does but I always take those claims with a pinch of salt. The other alternative is to go to an induction kit but would prefer to fit the simple panel as much easier as it seems most of the induction just make lots of noise and the money I save will allow for me to get the seats repaired and also won't affect the insurance. Any comments would be much appreciated. Thanks

[cadders]

havn't got a panel filter myself i use pipercross induction kit but regal claim 1-2 bhp gains with k&n panel filter

[etrusco]

Careful mate, It's all snake oil. K&N and the like lets in larger dirt particles than stock paper air filters. All this grit will score and machine your engine in the long run Furthermore oil spray used in after cleaning cotton gauze filters will muck up your air mass sensor hot filament! Best bet is to leave stock filter well alone but to try to free up ur box a bit.

[LazyDonkey]

Careful mate,
                    It's all snake oil. K&N and the like lets in larger dirt particles than stock paper air filters. All this grit will score and machine your engine in the long run 
Furthermore oil spray used in after cleaning cotton gauze filters will muck up your air mass sensor hot filament!
Best bet is to leave stock filter well alone but to try to free up ur box a bit.

Hmmmmm

a- Nobles and countless yank tanks have K&N's on them and Courteneys fit K&N's to NAs and TMS et all fit ITGs and Vipers to cars. So long as this is the case I'll not be worried about having one on my car.

B- Cheap petrol / oil / not warming up you car properly / putting more pressure on one buttock cheek while driving could do more damage to your engine the a K&N in the long run.

c- IIRC In the two years I've been on the site no-one has had a NA that failed due to an induction kit letting in more grit than the standard filter.

d - IIRC AMM failure only occurs on turbos (do NA's have AMMs??) and this has not been linked to oil AFAIK.

e - The "timbo" airbox mod you sugguest itself is not without controversy and TMS for one beleive it to be a bad thing.

Your statement is your opinon and you are of course entitled to it, but there are a large number of companies in business selling inductioin kits and a large number of us who have them fitted to our cars without a problem.

My recommendation TedJ is that if you just want more noise, but the K&N and you'll be happy - buy it for BHP gains and you may be less happy. ITG and to a lesser extend Viper may be a different story however.

EDIT : My point wasn't that clear above, what I was meaning to say is that every performance enhancing mod from a chip to a new filter could be said to "damage" the engine or at the least reduce its lifespan so why pick on just a K&N ?

Edited by LazyDonkey, 02 April 2006 - 08:11 PM.

[etrusco]

LAzy Donkey,

a- Nobles and countless yank tanks have K&N's on them and Courteneys fit K&N's to NAs and TMS et all fit ITGs and Vipers to cars. So long as this is the case I'll not be worried about having one on my car. 

" So you jump off the ship because everyone is doing it and it looks cool.... LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE, THE SHIP IS SINKING!!!"

Well aware that you're justifying your purchase... Nonetheles my comment on K&N is not aimed at just them, Call it "generic aftermarket cotton pre-oiled filter". My comment is neither assumption nor OPINION but based on fact and research that has been done over the effectiveness of these filters. Relax, I used to use K&N filters myself until I did some research and found this: modifying the zlet
Draw your own conclusion, and happy K&N meal for your engine

Edited by etrusco, 02 April 2006 - 11:17 PM.

[LazyDonkey]

As I said you are entitled to your opinon. I have read the same documents and informartion as yourself and I'm sticking with the K&N. I have invested no money in the kit as it came with the car so there is no post-purchase rationalisation here. With so many conflicitng opinions and scientific theories and test results being banded about these days it is up to the individual to take the results and make their own considered opinion. I'm sure 5 mins on google could turn up some pro-aftermarket filter opinons. You're post is very one-sided and I was merely trying to offer a alternative view and correct some innacuracies in your original post. It would be quite dull if we were all the same. EDIT : If I was interested in following the crowd cos "it looked cool" i would have bought an Elise.

Edited by LazyDonkey, 03 April 2006 - 07:04 AM.

[Ratspants]

I was wondering if anyone had fitted a K&N panel filter and did it give any power gain at all?

I think a lot of the replies to your post have been about induction kits rather than replacement panel filters.

My advice would be to not bother with a replacement panel filter as you won't get any noise improvements (the airbox still muffles that), you won't get any power improvements (the airbox is the more restrictive component) and you'll have to keep cleaning it yourself (that's assuming that it doesn't get replaced anyway on your next service).

I had a K&N induction kit and refitted a completely standard airbox instead as having a clean OEM air filter that's changed as part of a service is better than having a dirty "performance" one that I have to keep cleaning myself.

Ben

[Tedj]

Thanks for all of your help with this matter. Seems to have set a couple of hares racing, sorry. So are you saying the cleaning of the induction kit can be a problem and very frequent and all it does is give a lot of noise and no real performance gain. As such I should stick with original filter and box?

[etrusco]

Tedj ,
on the one hand there is all the hype and propaganda you see at tuners and mags etc. On the other these independent tests, some carried out by professional engineers, some carried out by enthusiasts, indicating it will kill or deteriorate your engine due to its very poor filtration.
As far as noise is concerned, when I had my K&N PANEL FILTER it did give a nice growl, but I'm not sure if it was the engine coughing from from all the dirt inhaled , or the actual induction noise.
More seriously have you taken a look here links to tests of K&N vs OEM at the various links to the tests that have carried out about aftermarket cotton filters?
I find it strange that neither Porsche nor Ferrari use K&N or oiled cotton filters in their cars, Are K&N smarter than Porsche and Ferrari engineers with millions of pounds of development money available in research?
The sad fact is- Porsche's OEM fiber-strand treated paper air filter costs MORE to make than K&Ns product

This is just to help you getting informed and seing the other side of the propaganda. I'm not here to debate with anyone.
Don't care what choice you make, LazyDonkey has it right when he says each is entitled to his own opinion.

Edited by etrusco, 03 April 2006 - 11:24 AM.

[Ratspants]

So are you saying the cleaning of the induction kit can be a problem and very frequent and all it does is give a lot of noise and no real performance gain. As such I should stick with original filter and box?

If the choices are performance panel filter, induction kit or sticking with the original filter and airbox then I say either get an induction kit for the noise and clean it every 6/12 months or leave it totally standard. Don't expect to see any meaningful power gains, I understand that to improve performance on the induction side entails replacing a whole chunk more of the intake manifold. Have a look for the DBilias intake manifolds.

If you still think there might be power gains from 3rd party induction kits then the ITG seems the best of the crop but it's pricey.

I had a K&N and the noise is AWESOME! Now I have the original back on, I miss the noise but it's less faff (zero faff) to maintain as it get replaced at every service. Have a search on here for cleaning kits and you'll find out what you need to do to clean a cone filter.

Ben

P.S. Just my opinion etc. etc.

Edited by Ratspants, 03 April 2006 - 11:42 AM.

[luna_s]

im currently in the process of making a custom intake pipe too, sure i read somewhere that the oem one causes the most restriction (itll look 10x better anyway), still undecided wether to stick the standard air box on it or my bmc cda

[etrusco]

Excellent initiative luna-s, Go to a junk yard/auto separator and select the largest OEM air box that will fit in side pod, from a well developed motor i.e. Honda V-tec, Mitsu EVO, SUbaru impreza etc. these will have a well studied dynamic air box and high filtration air filter (for protection ) Then make a nice thick snorkel/pipe-work to connect it all, with bell-mouths and all. That will give you a nice open breathing induction side!

[luna_s]

i'm not the only one to have done this, i believe r1chy has one on his car atm , theres pics somewhere, intake pipe will be 70mm ID instead with silicone ends

[tdwindustries]

Anyone mentioned that maybe car manufacturers and non-reusable filter makers have an interest in putting you off long life filters? Obviously if everyone bought a K and N the aftermarket for OEM/renewable filters would collapse... And then obviously K and N's main business is making filters, whereas Porsche etc make cars..... Just a few more arguments for the pot.

Edited by tdwindustries, 03 April 2006 - 01:14 PM.

[etrusco]

Anyone mentioned that maybe car manufacturers and non-reusable filter makers have an interest in putting you off long life filters?

Obviously if everyone bought a K and N the aftermarket for OEM/renewable filters would collapse...

I think the main reason is that LONG LIFE filters does not rime with LONG LIFE ENGINE, is why they were not chosen...

Commercially, you're absolutely right. I was talking about engine performance and longevity, serious performance manufacturers are a niche so less affected by commercial aspect since they produce a fraction of the mainstream sedan models, cheaper companies make. This is the reason I mentioned upper scale manufacturers like Porsche and Ferrari. I would think they would drop the best available filter PERFORMANCE & LONGEVITY WISE and wouldn't make any tradeoffs with commercial aspects.
Then again they could have easily contracted their OEM suppliers to make them an oiled cotton filter for their few thousand models produced a year, if the performance were really that spectacular. I'm sure a millionaire Porsche afficionado would be willing to pay extra...

Edited by etrusco, 03 April 2006 - 02:01 PM.

[LazyDonkey]

I find it strange that neither Porsche nor Ferrari use K&N or oiled cotton filters in their cars, Are K&N smarter than Porsche and Ferrari engineers with millions of pounds of development money available in research?

You could use this argument against Tubi style exhausts or Ruff porsche conversions. Just cos Porsche or Ferrari don't spec the products does not mean they are useless / not worthy of being on the cars.

Lets face it Porsche rebadged a VW 4x4 and ferrari made the modial so neither of them get it right all the time

[LazyDonkey]

Oh and remember that Vaux / Lotus supplied a "aftermarket" panel filter on the VXR220.

[tdwindustries]

Ah good point Lazy!

[etrusco]

You could use this argument against Tubi style exhausts or Ruff porsche conversions. Just cos Porsche or Ferrari don't spec the products does not mean they are useless / not worthy of being on the cars.

Not that easy, Here we enter the very tightly regulated realm of emissions and noise regulations to which manufacturers are strictly expected to comply with, in order to first homologate their cars. after that point you could pretty much put a gutter pipe on your 911 GT3
It certainly won't suck grit into your engine!
You might get your occasional bird nest though

Edited by etrusco, 03 April 2006 - 02:26 PM.

[LazyDonkey]

You could use this argument against Tubi style exhausts or Ruff porsche conversions. Just cos Porsche or Ferrari don't spec the products does not mean they are useless / not worthy of being on the cars.

Not that easy, Here we enter the very tightly regulated realm of emissions and noise regulations to which manufacturers are strictly expected to comply with, in order to first homologate their cars. after that point you could pretty much put a gutter pipe on your 911 GT3

But porsche / ferrari supply "aftermarket" exahust kits just like lotus do on the S2 lizzy......obviously to get around holomogation issues.

However if you took your view that the manufacturers always know best then why would you buy a larini for your lizzy or a tubi style for your mercie

You are using the same arguments some people use against chips on engine management systems. All i'm saying is that just cos porsche / ferrari don't fit them doesn't make them rubbish.

Edited by LazyDonkey, 03 April 2006 - 02:31 PM.