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Aquamist For Vxt


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#1 capelink

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 09:04 AM

Wow, do I wish I had the money that Thorney has got (or even a fraction of it :D ). Sad fact of the matter is that I haven't, and though I agree with all the benefits of AmD's charge-cooler setup, I just can't justify well over £1000 on it. So Aquamist it is then !! I rang Demon Tweeks who said they would supply the kit for a fraction of that cost and I'm going to start checking out friends cars for a suitable second washer tank with level warning system that I could dealer-order. It has to be better than using the same tank as the screen washers... chucking blue screen wash into the engine just doesn't seem right ;) So there it is then.. but how the hell would I fit it ?? To be honest, it looks very straight forward, the only question really is where do you put the spray jet for best cooling ? If anybody has seen the sprint and noticed the setup then please let me know. If anybody has got the Aquamist system installed then I'd appreciate any notes/pictures on where the spray jet was mounted (probably just before the throttle body) and what size jet was used. TIA

#2 SSH1

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 10:13 AM

What is Aquamist? Is it a water injection system? If so: anyone know how this was set up on the sprint??? Thorney, Stu Harris? Regards Chris

#3 capelink

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 10:33 AM

Aquamist is the water injection system they used on the sprint - plus it's about the only quality kit available (the WRC rally teams use aquamist on their cars - though they have charge-cooler setups also, and intercoolers the size of Norfolk).

More info on Aquamist is

http://www.aquamist....sys1/sys1a.html

http://www.aquamist....diag/fig22.html

the system to check out is the 1s - normally about £335 delivered to your door from what I've seen. You can use just water, or better still a water/methanol mix which acts as anti-freeze in the winter plus methanol has got a very high octane rating too. One of the interesting facts I've picked up is that it's likley that you could run normal unleaded fuel in a super+ setup without loosing power as the water decreases knocking/pinking which would cause the ECU to retard the ignition/boost. I'd rather go for the charge-cooler setup as it's more of a fit and forget, but it's just too much money.

There are loads of resources on the net about peoples experiences with the kit (all good from what I've seen) - just no vx220 specific ones as yet.

#4 SSH1

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 11:04 AM

Hi Capelink Looking on the Courtenay website they offer this as an upgrade, but at £725 fitted! Seems a lot if you can get it for £335 & ftting isn't too difficult, but then again they did a lot of the development of this system on the sprint, so must have invested a lot of time & money. So what you need to know is what they did on the sprint, i.e. where they sourced a water tank from, where they located the spray jet & what size of jet they used. I have emailed them asking if they supply this on a DIY basis & if they include instructions. Regards Chris

#5 capelink

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 11:24 AM

Hi Chris, good idea ! I've downloaded the fitting instructions from aquamist and it seems a simple setup. There are three main things that seem to be vehicle specific : Where to put the jet (before/after intercooler, before throttle body etc..) What size jet to use - they supply 3 jets for you to take a pick from Trigger boost pressure before the mist kicks in (adjustable) Courtney know the answers to these - hopefully if they supply a DIY kit (like they do for the Astra etc..) they would let you know. The other decision you have is do you just 'Tee' into the normal washer bottle pipe to supply the (blue !) water (easy to do and makes use of level indicator if fitted) or do you add another bottle, which is what I would probably do and add an LED on the dash as a warning ? If anybody happens to see in the engine bay of a sprint, a picture of where the jet is fixed would be very, very nice !! :) Thks PAul

#6 SSH1

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 12:46 PM

Hi Capelink Looking on the Courtenay website they offer this as an upgrade, but at £725 fitted! Seems a lot if you can get it for £335 & ftting isn't too difficult, but then again they did a lot of the development of this system on the sprint, so must have invested a lot of time & money. So what you need to know is what they did on the sprint, i.e. where they sourced a water tank from, where they located the spray jet & what size of jet they used. I have emailed them asking if they supply this on a DIY basis & if they include instructions. Regards Chris

#7 R1 nur

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 04:06 AM

Never bothered reading this 'till your comments on the other thread. Always good to have as many options as poss. I reckon you might be the first private owner to do this if you go ahead with it. Don't forget to take loads of pics to post and let us all know how it works out.

#8 Thorney

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 07:46 AM

The Sprint has water injection AND an mister kit (the problem with heat really is paramount - hence the view on a charge cooler). Fitting should be a DIY job (and as R1 says it would be great to have this in the 'how tos' section as it would be a useful add on to all VXT owners whether they want to mod or not. Misters do have their downsides, firstly you must be religeous in keeping the water level up, if you run out the engine will suddenly have no cooling effect with possible disastrous results. The idea of using the window washers is that there are existing systems in place to remind you when you're getting low. The second downside is there limited effect; they DO cool things down a bit but not massively and if they're being used all the time (and judging from intake temps we've seen then they will be) a tank of water won't last very long. At brunters Neil had to refill twice (although this was a very heavy use and that was pretty good I reckon). Final downside is effect. For £400 odd you'll get 'some' cooling (and its certainly better than nothing) but it won't be anywhere near as effective as a charge cooler or even water injection, so its value is actually more limited (although I agree the quantum is better than the CC's £1000). I'm sure AmD would be happy to help out (potentially for a reduced charge) if we can document it all for others to benefit, drop me a PM if you want me to ask them.

#9 capelink

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 11:35 PM

Hi again, interesting views, Thorney. I have done a bit of digging around on this water injection stuff, and it turns out that it is likely that the sprint is not using it in line with more recent findings by the kit maker. I've always been a sceptic of intercooler misters (even most Subaru STI owners say it makes no difference when it's fitted as standard to their cars). Water injection is a bit of a black-art though, and I'm convinced there is plenty of mileage ;) here. I contacted Richard Lamb of ERL/aquamist who is very helpful. He sent me some info on recent testing on a Subaru test-bench. I know it's a Subaru and not a VX220, but hey, heat is heat and water is H2O no matter what tap it comes out from, so this probably serves as an indicator rather than a rule. This is what he said : START One interesting finding recently whilst doing a product development test on a WRX. We placed a 0.4mm jet before the intercooler and a 1mm jet after the intercooler. During the 7- hour intemittent dyno runs, the intercooler would never go above ambient - below ambient during idle when some residual water is still being evaporated. As soon as we removed the 0.4mm before the intercooler, we could see the speed the temperature on the cores rise, you can feel the heat as you approach it with you bear hand (never had the bravery try and touch it), so we quickly sprayed the exterior of the intercooler with water and continued for 10 minutes., it was still too hot to touch. Another amazing thing we discovered - we were only injecting 70cc/minute! It is an interesting fact that spraying the intercooler externally does not have the same effect as internal WI. Just to confirm that you will gain a great deal by placing two jets on the VX220. You will be an instant believer when you see this happening in front of your own eyes. END I'm in total agreement with you in the fact that what a VX220 with the boost turned up needs is lower intake temps. Perhaps by clever installation of an aquamist system you can achieve this goal. Richard is going to do a bit of work himself in trying to find out the setup used on the sprint and give help where he can. I'll keep the forum updated with any news I get.

#10 Thorney

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Posted 17 October 2003 - 06:18 AM

Good research mate, excellent work. Imnotworthy A couple of points. The Sprint DOES use water injection (trust me on this), secondly the WRX has the engine at the front with a great big rad and excellent airflow, we do not. Subarau use the misters to great effect as they're there to simply calm things down under full boost situations, you'll be asking the misters to act as aditional engine cooling - not their design. However thats not to say they're not a bad idea, I'd be interested simply for education purposes but I seriously doubt misters on their own could drop intake temps low enough to do the required job. (if they can then I reckon you'll need a trailer to carry the water bowser ;) )

#11 capelink

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Posted 17 October 2003 - 09:14 AM

Just to clarify what I was trying to get over in the last post - The email Richard sent me does leave a few grey areas in it's translation and we did have a brief email conversation at midnight ... we were a bit tired and the spelling was getting a bit poor as we had both had a long day I think ! From the Subaru forums (and my own experiences) external water misters that spray a mist over the outside of the intercooler don't work very well. In my Scoobie STI I never noticed any difference and other forums where modified non-STI imprezas ask about the conversion are often told just not to bother retro-fitting the kit even though it's only about £100 for the bits- it might look trick and be a talking point, but in cooling terms it might get you a few degrees C reduction from a standing start but that's about it. Richards testing tries to back this up saying that in his testing, an external mister didn't reduce the temps by very much (if anything) when used for about 10 minutes continuously. I know the sprint uses a mister but it seems that was the act of a desperate man more than anything :D (strangely enough one of the most talked about conversions is modifying the standard Subaru legacy charge-cooler (air-water) to fit imprezas). Now on to the internal water injection bit .. (I know thorney and some others probably know the differences and principles, but I'm just trying to clarify for the masses ;) ) I for one know that on cold damp mornings my cars go better - you can't obviously notice this all the time, I think because it often goes hand-in-hand with icy/wet roads so foot-to-the floor isn't everyone's cup-of-tea during this time. Think back to those cold December mornings and how crisper the engine feels. This is due to both the air being denser (cold) and water moisture being present which the engine likes. Typically when a WI (Water Injection) kit is fitted, water 'vapour' is injected into the engine inlet tract triggered by high boost pressures. On normal turbo cars (Impreza, VXT etc..) the guidelines are to put a single injector just before the throttle body (it's put here so that the vapour has less distance to travel to the engine once it has been activated so there is less of a delayed effect. If you put the jet further back along the intake system (say around the intercooler) then the vapour would be evaporated away before it hit the engine which would not stop engine knock, but would lead to lower intake temperatures, though. Richards testing leads him to believe that the best system seems to have two jets, one injecting vapour into the engine by the throttle body, the other injecting vapour into the intercooler (internally) which is how he got his low temperatures. By just having the one jet by the throttle body he could see the temperatures rising, but with the extra small jet into the intercooler, these rises went away. He believes that the sprint will not have the two-jet setup (probably just a single jet was fitted) as this is a more recent finding. An interesting fact is that he claims they were using 70cc of water injection per minute (only during max boost) in their testing. This might seem a great deal of water to be chucking into an engine, and might logically seem to not go hand-in-hand with the fire/explosion/combustion that's going on in they cylinders, but remember that when you drive your car in the rain, it is probably taking in about 150cc of water at that time anyway from the water saturated ambient air ! Thankfully, Richard seems to be an enthusiast about their product and likes nothing better than to have people get maximum benefit from it. I for one do not want to start drilling holes all over my intake system trying different setups (which is why I started this thread !) but hopefully he can come back with some 'Specific' information on the VXT on how well it all works (if at all). Best thing of all is that it's a British invention, a british product made here in the UK, the world leader in the technology exporting world-wide, and they used water injection in the spitfire during WWII to get higher supercharger boosts when dicing with then pesky ME109's over the channel ;) Another useless fact.. (I'm full of these :beat: ), The engine of the Harrier jump jet is so highly stressed that they have a large water tank sat behind the pilot that injects water into the engine to stop it from blowing up ! Without this water, the engine would quickly give-up the ghost ! (I used to work on an RAF aircraft maintenance field).. VXT with water injection.. dices with M3's and Merc's down the M4 .. is history repeating itself ? :blink: Watch this space :D

#12 Chuck

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Posted 17 October 2003 - 06:51 PM

With all this talk about cooling I'd like to ask a quick question. Thorney, with your current mods circa 260bhp. Exhaust - 17bhp Airfilter - 10bhp Boost/fuel increase 33bhp is this all about right? If the Sprint has 240bhp and you can achieve this short of 13bhp with no boost increase so no extra heat, then why do they need so much cooling?? AMD say they can get 220 with just a remap with no cooling, so if you add your exhaust and air filter which is another 27bhp then I could get 247 with no additional cooling. But AMD give 240 for all this, so that means 20bhp for the airfilter/exhaust ??

#13 Thorney

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Posted 17 October 2003 - 07:24 PM

Pretty much all in the map. The Sprint has 'only' 240bhp but over 280llb's of torque (well over the GB limit :D ) boost is still upped to get the torque hence the heat. I'm not sure what boost they're running 1.25 bar? (standard is 0.85bar). Milltek on its own gave 23-25bhp and the PiperX gave another 10bhp (all at top end though). As the exhaust is sucking heat away the extra bhp (and minor torque) gives a bit more heat but as the gas flow is better its not enough to cause a problem. AmD's 220bhp map ups the boost a bit and increases fueling to compensate the heat, add the exhaust and the map is changed to take into account better breathing but no 'extra' power is sought as the exhaust provide it already. The Milltek can only do so much and whilst in real life the engine with one fitted could probably run to 240bhp or more AmD are conscious on logevity and always spec down to safe level rather than be daft. Adding on the charge cooler allows the 'daddy' map to be used. This ups bhp to 260odd but ups torque to 250llbs' (which is significant) as the coller drops the intake temps by over 13 degrees and as such the map is written to get torque and power and not simply to reduce temperature. I'm currently running a 'special' - 275llb's of torque and 265bhp :) AmD have dropped the torque down a bit (early in the range) compared to the Sprint to save the GB but have got it to keep it all the way through the rev range whereas the Sprint tails off (we think due to heat build up). I'm running 1.2bar and the CC works like a dream. The Sprint would hugely benefit from a full exhaust system (it currently has a modded one) so we've given them a Milltek to play with :) I'd post up maps but I've bust my pc :angry:

#14 Thorney

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Posted 17 October 2003 - 07:28 PM

Oh and bhp inceases aren't incremental. AmD write the map for each car, its a different map depending on what other mods you have you can't really look at it as a zorst + map type thing, the map is designed to optimise the mods.

#15 R1 nur

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Posted 17 October 2003 - 08:54 PM

So it is looking good for the Sprint to come with a Miltek then. Yeh! Under 8 mins here I come!

#16 capelink

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Posted 18 October 2003 - 09:17 AM

AmD's 220bhp map ups the boost a bit and increases fueling to compensate the heat, add the exhaust and the map is changed to take into account better breathing but no 'extra' power is sought as the exhaust provide it already.


I supose you are saying that 'fuel-dumping' is used, where extra fuel not meant to be fully-burnt is injected into the cylinder to help keeping the cylinder temps down. Quite a common thing to do. I know I keep mentioning Subaru's, but quite a few people can relate to them as they are so popular. Those who have owned them must have noticed how bad the fuel consumption was (I often struggled to get over 20mpg from mine) - because the factory are very conservative with the fueling and go for rich mixtures and lots of fuel-dumping to keep the temperatures low on full boost - perhaps a contributing factor as to why they are so reliable for a performance engine ??

The bad thing about fuel-dumping (besides the bad mpg) is the fact that whilst this is going on, the ideal Air/Fuel ratio for combustion goes very rich - robbing the engine of power (ideal ratio of about 14.7:1 seems to ring a bell). This is why some people use water injection, because it allows the cylinder temps to be lowered by 100's degrees without fuel-dumping, so the ideal air:fuel ratio is kept - therefore cleaner and more power with better mpg.

This is where the benefits of an AMD chip/tune-up come to play. If you just got a standard drive in/out remap, the chip couldn't take into account features such as water-injection and would continue to over-fuel the engine as if it wasn't there. AMD do a full rolling-road tune-up and their installed chip/map should work better taking into account all the mods (from exhaust to filter and Water Injection) that are fitted.

#17 Man-Chun

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Posted 11 November 2003 - 10:39 PM

Pretty much all in the map. The Sprint has 'only' 240bhp but over 280llb's of torque (well over the GB limit :D ) boost is still upped to get the torque hence the heat. I'm not sure what boost they're running 1.25 bar? (standard is 0.85bar).

Milltek on its own gave 23-25bhp and the PiperX gave another 10bhp (all at top end though). As the exhaust is sucking heat away the extra bhp (and minor torque) gives a bit more heat but as the gas flow is better its not enough to cause a problem.

AmD's 220bhp map ups the boost a bit and increases fueling to compensate the heat, add the exhaust and the map is changed to take into account better breathing but no 'extra' power is sought as the exhaust provide it already.

The Milltek can only do so much and whilst in real life the engine with one fitted could probably run to 240bhp or more AmD are conscious on logevity and always spec down to safe level rather than be daft.

Adding on the charge cooler allows the 'daddy' map to be used. This ups bhp to 260odd but ups torque to 250llbs' (which is significant) as the coller drops the intake temps by over 13 degrees and as such the map is written to get torque and power and not simply to reduce temperature.

I'm currently running a 'special' - 275llb's of torque and 265bhp :) AmD have dropped the torque down a bit (early in the range) compared to the Sprint to save the GB but have got it to keep it all the way through the rev range whereas the Sprint tails off (we think due to heat build up). I'm running 1.2bar and the CC works like a dream. The Sprint would hugely benefit from a full exhaust system (it currently has a modded one) so we've given them a Milltek to play with :)

I'd post up maps but I've bust my pc :angry:

Hi was just curious is that 1.2 bar to redline?. Looking at the turbo flow maps thats basically the maximum the turbo will give you.

#18 Man-Chun

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Posted 11 November 2003 - 10:40 PM

Oh another question :D, is there a boost limiter in the first two gears now?. As the coupe turbos had them, was wondering if you remove these boost limiters or not :).

#19 Thorney

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Posted 11 November 2003 - 10:52 PM

peak boost is limited to 1.2bar and hold 1 bar. Runs pretty mcuh to redline (a bit before)

#20 Man-Chun

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Posted 11 November 2003 - 11:06 PM

Cool thanks for the info.




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