23 replies to this topic

[Gedi]

Why does the NA put out 180bhp at stage 3? I expected much more. I used to have a pug 306 GTI-6 that went to LAD for some head work. That came back at 210bhp. It didn't have all the fancy cams etc that the NA uses and its a smaller engine so something doesn't add up. So what are the limitations of the NA engine?

[paulb]

I am very surprised that LAD were able to get 30 bhp gain out of just a bit of head work and no cams. The 2.2 is Euro IV compliant which will limit the tuning potential. I personally feel that there are likely to be some largeish gains by throwing away the Vauxhall induction system but still think we will struggle to get beyond 100bhp/litre without serious money spent or by fitting forced induction. More extreme cams would up the power further but would probably need some bottom end work (bolts, pocketed pistons) and would be at the expense of low down torque and driveability. Anything is possible (as is shown by Caterhams R500 engine running 230 bhp out of a 1.8 litre k series) but at the expense of reliability and driveability. The R500 tends to need engine overhauls at about the same rate as we need an oil change! Paul

[Vespillo]

This is true, I take my hat off to AMD THorney/paulb/rubber etc etc and all you other guys for aiding in the quest for power and reliability. The fact that you are turning a complete "I dont believe in modding cars" person into a "when can i get stage 3 done on my NA" is another matter, but seriously I think i can speak on behalf of all the people here and say THANKS!!!!!! This forum is ace!

[Gedi]

Here is my printout from the rolling road.
The superchip was only installed to get around a flat spot at 4500rpm. I actually lost 2bhp when this was done at at powerzone, although it was a much hotter day when this was done (and obviously a different set of rollers)


A set of cams would have taken me to 235bhp, and apparently throttle bodies could have taken me upto a possible 280bhp.

I was hoping for similar output (235) from the NA, in which case I would probably have bought one instead of the turbo. However my need for power will have to push me down the turbo'd route.

Edited by Gedi, 12 February 2004 - 10:00 AM.

[paulb]

I don't think you'd be able to get anything like that sort of output from a Euro IV compliant engine. The most tuneable of the modern engines appears to be the Ford Duratec which will give about 220/230 bhp out of a standard bottom end, some reasonably mild cams, throttle bodies and a bit of bottom end work. People are developing conversions to take this engine to 280 bhp but they are likely to cost getting on for £10k. A friend is having a Duratec fitted to his Caterham and it isn't cheap. If the Peugeot engines can be tuned to 280 bhp just by fitting cams and throttle bodies, I'm very surprised there aren't more of them turning up in club motorsport. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just surprised that an engine that can deliver 50 bhp more than it's rivals in what sounds like a similar state of tune, isn't being forced into Caterhams, Westfields and single seaters for the upcoming racing season.

[Gedi]

I know LAD do a 180bhp Saxo on just head and cam work alone. This is from a 1.6 litre engine. http://www.ladmotors...k/saxo-evo.html
This is one of the reasons I was hoping for more from a 2.2 litre.

On another note, LAD also do a 170bhp elise. Up from the 118bhp that the K-Series produces.
These guys are well renound for getting massive power from engines, and are regularly mentioned in 'car and car conversions'.

I can 100% vouch for the quality of their workmanship.

So in retrospect of this......... I rang up LAD.

I spoke to one of the guys who said they had not started to put together a package for the VX yet, but were interested in deveploing something.

He said they had done work on the 2.2 ecotec unit before for specials in kit cars and can easily achieve 200bhp+

I need to ring back in 1/2 hour to discuss options with the manager.

I'll report back soon

[Jim_Cross]

Part of the problem is that people are still considering power only. Sure, you probably could get 200+ bhp from the NA quite easily - stick on the wildest cams you can find, up the rev limit etc. But then you've sacrificed all that lovely torque (cf. Elise Sport 160 engine!) for the sake of top-end power. I think most people tuning NAs want to keep the power delivery fairly similar (i.e. plenty of torque throughout the rev range), rather than converting it into a ham-fisted VTEC attempt. Also, while I'm not saying the LAD 306 GTi RR figures are optimistic, you must bear in mind that RR figures are an educated guess at best. But 280bhp from a 2.0 NA engine? That's gotta be basically race-spec, and almost entirely unusable on the road. Even some of the most revered production NA engines, like the E46 M3 straight six only put out something like 115bhp/litre, and that's considered to be a technical masterpiece

Edited by Jim_Cross, 12 February 2004 - 11:31 AM.

[Gedi]

Agreed. LAD don't do the 280bhp car. That is 'apparantly' done by additions to their package (cams, 45's) at a later stage. I can't say that figure is 100% as It was only what I was told. It was going up the drag strip at Santa Pod, and that was what it was advertised as. (got a 13.1 IIRC)

[VEX]

I had a 306Gti-6 and had some interest in LAD doing some work. However three IMO points I would like to make.

1) IIRC the 306-GTI6 was pulled over a year before the rest range because it didnt meet the emissions regs for new cars, let alone the future Euro IV ones that the VX NA does.

2) Whilst I am not against LAD and I know every moddification garage will have there knockers but there have been some reports about LAD over egging performance claims and RR results. I know these are all subjective and are variable due to weather conditions.

3) The 306 GTI engine does start out with 167BHP rather than our 145, that is already a 22BHP headstart and my bog standard NA is quite happily faster than the GTI that got PX'ed.

Horses for Courses and all IMO and personal views.

[cheeky_chops]

I think most people tuning NAs want to keep the power delivery fairly similar (i.e. plenty of torque throughout the rev range), rather than converting it into a ham-fisted VTEC attempt.

Absolutely.

Was on a incline today in thirdand braked down to 800rpm.... Car just pulled straight away

[clipping_point]

Lets all see what Dudes engine can produce! With the phenomenal exhaust manifold and just "funnels" at the inlet, combined with head work (?) and race cams he has to set a new record for the engine. No Vaux ECU present either!

[Ricky2772]

will dude drive it on reg. roads as well, or keep it for racing-only?

[clipping_point]

No. He wrote that at least the fuel injection optimization would be performed on reg. roads. Not in the presence of any law enforcers I suspect But I suspect that a lot can be learnt from his project

[dude]

i have two cars and a interesting thing is that they already have the same registrationplates i will not modify my wife´s car . yet! but i will put my racecar onto the rototest rollers with the std-engine, but with intake, exhaust and with my MBE941-system. just to see what the engine can perform w/o internal changes. //anders

[clipping_point]

i have two cars and a interesting thing is that they already have the same registration plates

[toreide]

I know LAD do a 180bhp Saxo on just head and cam work alone. This is from a 1.6 litre engine.

When I was a Saxo owner I did extensive research into the different tuning options I had for my VTS. LAD did have a reputation of claiming huge gains that fell through on other dyno's. The 180 you referred to is known to put out closer to 140.

[Gedi]

I have a younger brother who's friend has a VTS with the 160 conversion. I know this does put out 160 as it has been on both the Bury rally Equip and powerzone rollers. My 306 which had the 200bhp conversion put out 210 on the Bury RE rollers and 208 on the powerzone ones. Not saying they always meet their targets, but they did with mine.

[clipping_point]

I don't think you'd be able to get anything like that sort of output from a Euro IV compliant engine.

Isn´t it "just" change the ECU to another Fuel Injection System?

[Blanchie]

BHP is one thing but real world driving requires Torque, Just trying having an ingear play with a PD Diesel, not a lot in it . Can anybody post the claimed increased torque figures for the VTS and pug? i bet it hasn't changed much and all this extra PWR is at the top end.

Edited by Blanchie, 19 February 2004 - 01:10 PM.

[Vespillo]

I did a test 50-100 against my mates PD130 and I nailed him! we did start off in 3rd though, 4th would of been closer I guess for the first few seconds anyway. But I do agree torque is def good for road use.