36 replies to this topic

[Joachim Osbeck]

My first post - I hope it's ok to discuss Elise S1 vs VX220 to begin with

My thread at SELCO http://forums.seloc.....php?tid=225890

I prefer light cars with lot of handling vs power and are looking for a car that has ~ 150 hp on 850 kg with driver

My quick summary for the cars prior to being a track/race car

Elise s1
+ Light (750 kg )
+ Lots of racing background
+ No comfort stuff
+ Small wheels
- Drive train is fussy ( cost £££ to get reliable 150 hp )
- Farly high priced vs age
- Spare parts in Sweden not easy to get


VX220
+ Bulletproof drivetrain
+ 150 hp out of the box
+ Spare parts easy to get ( Opel dealer has them )
+ Good price level
- To heavy 860 kg
- To much comfort stuff
- Boring drivetrain ( more of a family car engine )
- To big/heavy wheels ( want to run 15" r-compounds )

Some spontaneous question

- Is it possible to get a VX220 to ~ 800 kg without to much effort ?
- Can it run on 15" wheels ( e.g Front 195/55 rear: 225/xx )
- Is there some nice cure for the engine to be more crispy/responsive ?
- Is it possible to be 190 cm and fit in ( ok to floor-mout seat ) ?

I think if I can get the VX220 to be lighter and crispier it's a better foundation for track/race car. My prior is driving/chassi setup not worrying about drivetrain issues

Also I have many VX200 ( Speedster ) being crashed here in Sweden ( track-days ) and as I understand it the car is very snappy oversteer in the exit/middle of the corner but understeering in the entry of the corner - I assume that this something that can be cured with correct chassi setup ( spirngs, sways, spaces etc...) ?


Thanks for any feedback


BR
Joachim

[SteveA]

Talking to MaxR at the national I'm sure I remember him saying his supercharged N/A was close to 700kgs. No doubt it's not cheap to get it that light tho. Just a point if you are racing the car, VX clams are quite expensive where S1 clams can be sourced relatively cheaply.

[Shamone]

My first post - I hope it's ok to discuss Elise S1 vs VX220 to begin with

My thread at SELCO http://forums.seloc.....php?tid=225890

I prefer light cars with lot of handling vs power and are looking for a car that has ~ 150 hp on 850 kg with driver

My quick summary for the cars prior to being a track/race car

Elise s1
+ Light (750 kg )
+ Lots of racing background
+ No comfort stuff
+ Small wheels
- Drive train is fussy ( cost £££ to get reliable 150 hp )
- Farly high priced vs age
- Spare parts in Sweden not easy to get


VX220
+ Bulletproof drivetrain
+ 150 hp out of the box
+ Spare parts easy to get ( Opel dealer has them )
+ Good price level
- To heavy 860 kg
- To much comfort stuff
- Boring drivetrain ( more of a family car engine )
- To big/heavy wheels ( want to run 15" r-compounds )

Some spontaneous question

- Is it possible to get a VX220 to ~ 800 kg without to much effort ?
- Can it run on 15" wheels ( e.g Front 195/55 rear: 225/xx )
- Is there some nice cure for the engine to be more crispy/responsive ?
- Is it possible to be 190 cm and fit in ( ok to floor-mout seat ) ?

I think if I can get the VX220 to be lighter and crispier it's a better foundation for track/race car. My prior is driving/chassi setup not worrying about drivetrain issues

Also I have many VX200 ( Speedster ) being crashed here in Sweden ( track-days ) and as I understand it the car is very snappy oversteer in the exit/middle of the corner but understeering in the entry of the corner - I assume that this something that can be cured with correct chassi setup ( spirngs, sways, spaces etc...) ?


Thanks for any feedback


BR
Joachim

Elise s1
- Rover K-Series engine (family car Mini Metro engine)
- Head gasket failure common - Rover K-Series engine

VX220
- To big? Same chassis but lower sills
- To much comfort stuff - What a radio!
- Boring drivetrain ( more of a family car engine ) - 2.2 developed by Lotus

[Seb.F]

I thought the engine was nothing to do with Lotus?

[simsy]

K series is a great track engine, as it feels very free reving compared to the 2.2.. How ever the 2.2 does the job well, and will out perform most standard or lightly tuned k series 's out of the box... Gear box on the 2.2 is great. The k series ones are a bit flagile in comparison.. The VX chassis is more like the latest Toyota elise's, does not bite on track like all S1 do.. VX has a great track chassis, which suprised me when I first tracked the VX, as the S1 111S I had before has fantastic, but much more snappy. The stock VX chassis is quicker than stock S1 in my opinion. (not taking power to weight here) Lotus make a chassis that is soft and handles .... that's the Lotus party piece.... I would still use the S1 for a track car due to weight and clams etc..... How ever, the VX does track days better than I expected by miles, and I knew it would be great.....

Edited by simsy, 20 July 2009 - 09:58 AM.

[The Batman]

never had a problem with anyone in an S1 on track before even when i was standard... so theres a vote for the vx from me

[SteveA]

You should have a go at Eliseparts S1

Monster!

never had a problem with anyone in an S1 on track before even when i was standard...

so theres a vote for the vx from me

[The Batman]

You should have a go at Eliseparts S1

Monster!

hes on about standard s1 vs standard vx

Edited by joe_589, 20 July 2009 - 10:08 AM.

[Yellow_or_black?]

- To much comfort stuff
- Boring drivetrain ( more of a family car engine )

Seats - such a luxury these days

[Joachim Osbeck]

Great feedback Please - Is it possible to run the car on 15" rims ? - What involves making the 2.2 engine reving better ? Thanks /Joachim

[The Batman]

why do you want to run 15s? just out of curiosity buy a supercharger

[SteveA]

Deffo fine on 15"

[techieboy]

What involves making the 2.2 engine reving better ?

Lightened flywheel and removing the balancer shafts from the engine makes a huge difference to how quickly the Z22SE engine wants to rev (as does the supercharger ). Getting a remap to lift the rev limit to somewhere closer to 7,000rpm also makes a huge difference to the driveability of the car on track, in my experience. Those are all reasonably "cheap" modifications and don't involve upgrading the valvetrain or engine internals.

[Winstar]

buy a supercharger

That would put the car in Class A as it would be 3.4kg/bhp, he wants to compete in Class B 5.2kg/bhp

For a race car normally the ligther the better so I would lean towards the S1, again availability and cost of bodywork would be a factor as well. However in answer to you questions

- Is it possible to get a VX220 to ~ 800 kg without to much effort ?
Ricky's efforts

I've found the list of removed/added parts with the relative weights:

these are my removed parts on solo-track-days: (no pax)


pax seat 8,7 kg
pax belt 1,3
insulation behind seats 3,5
side mirrors+foglights 2,7
speakers+stock airbox 3,5
rims+tires (replaced by OZ+yoko) 12
backbox (komo-tec) 6,0
exhaust manifold 1,7
kat-removed 4,1
soft-top 4,7
metal+plastic headrests 2,2
two undertrays 6,0
tank-cover tray 2,0
footrest+carpet 1,4
race battery 6,0
heater unit 3,5
rear plate holder 0,3
front logo 0,3
water resevoir bracket 0,3
engine lifting supports 0,4
footwell divider 0,7
braided brake lines 0,3
drilled discs (front only)0,4
engine/cockpit insulator 1,1
fuel vapours canisters 1,9
ali tank 6,0
trunk lid 6,7


TOTAL: 88KG

added parts:
cooling brake ducts 1,2
fake-carbon mirrors 0.2
kat-bypass hose: 1,2
CDA 1,0
harness bar 3,0
4-points OMP harnesses 1,0
lexan trunk 1,1
front splitters 0,2
ADDED TOTAL: 9 kg

CURRENT SAVING: 79KG

there might an extra 1,5kg from the airbag IF I did not added to the speakers combo. (will verify today... )

still to add: polycarbonate windows
race clutch+flywheel+pistons+rods
+the weight of the Delta kompressor

will also arrive (sometime this year) carbonfiber front trunk (big saving there!)
carbonfiber 3rd stop rollbar cover

- Can it run on 15" wheels ( e.g Front 195/55 rear: 225/xx )
Yes Meldert is running 15" OZ Superllegera's
- Is there some nice cure for the engine to be more crispy/responsive ?
The Z22SE is a pretty lazy engine but by fitting a 4-1 manifold, sport exhust and the inlet manifold from the 2.4L version of the engine the torque curve can be shifted up the rev range to make about 160bhp. Throttel response and power could also be improved by changing to a cable throttle and standalone ECU
- Is it possible to be 190 cm and fit in ( ok to floor-mout seat ) ?
This will be a problem whether you have an elise or a VX, I'm 186cm tall and have to take the roof off if I'm wearing a helmet.

Edited by Winstar, 20 July 2009 - 12:04 PM.

[The Batman]

air box weighs a few kgs aswell as does the sound proofing changing the exhaust system saves a fair few kgs changing the wheels will aswell etc etc there is a list on seloc somewhere

[siztenboots]

Great feedback

Please

- Is it possible to run the car on 15" rims ?

Yes, this will make a big difference, about 30Kg less unsprung mass. Also means you can run very low but still have wishbone angles correct

Compared to standard wheels , 8% better acceleration

Edited by siztenboots, 20 July 2009 - 12:16 PM.

[Joachim Osbeck]

Thanks for your feedback

Thanks Winstar for the weight list - sound promising to get it to 800 kg:)

This will be a problem whether you have an elise or a VX, I'm 186cm tall and have to take the roof off if I'm wearing a helmet.

OK here is issue to sort out. In my MX-5 i have modded the floor/trans-tunnel to gain cm.

I'm thinking perhaps making av custom race-chair ( foaming ) and sitting directly on the floor.
Would this help or even sitting directly on the floor and you won't fit with 190 cm ? Is it possible to 'massage' the chassi to gain head room ?
I have long legs so I will probably have to work with steering wheel spacer and possible move pedals and gear-stick
Being a tall guy have some disadvantages

Throttle response and power could also be improved by changing to a cable throttle and standalone ECU

This has been done previously ? Using Mega Squirt ?

Lightened flywheel and removing the balancer shafts from the engine makes a huge difference to how quickly the Z22SE engine wants to rev (as does the supercharger wink.gif ). Getting a remap to lift the rev limit to somewhere closer to 7,000rpm also makes a huge difference to the driveability of the car on track, in my experience. Those are all reasonably "cheap" modifications and don't involve upgrading the valvetrain or engine internals.

Perfect mods for the racing class I want to be in, not alowing internal modifcations without stepping up to next class . I have to look into if it's OK to change to throttle cable.

why do you want to run 15s? just out of curiosity smile.gif

I don't think a car of this type needs bigger tires, running on 15 is my guess to improve handling and performances of the car + that R-compounds in this size are much cheaper than 16 or 17 and also you are taking away weight are the correct place
But for appearance 16 or 17 is nice

Gearbox questions
- Does the car have LSD like Torsen/ or possible to add ?
- Are the other stock gear ration available ?

Roll-bar question
- Same support for Vx as for Elise S2 ( petty bar, A-frame etc ? )


Thanks for support !

/Joachim

[techieboy]

Lightened flywheel and removing the balancer shafts from the engine makes a huge difference to how quickly the Z22SE engine wants to rev (as does the supercharger wink.gif ). Getting a remap to lift the rev limit to somewhere closer to 7,000rpm also makes a huge difference to the driveability of the car on track, in my experience. Those are all reasonably "cheap" modifications and don't involve upgrading the valvetrain or engine internals.

Perfect mods for the racing class I want to be in, not alowing internal modifcations without stepping up to next class . I have to look into if it's OK to change to throttle cable.

Removing the balance shafts and replacing with idler wheels and also fitting the lightened flywheel will probably save another 10kg's as well.

Gearbox questions
- Does the car have LSD like Torsen/ or possible to add ? There is an aftermarket Quaife ATB type LSD available
- Are the other stock gear ration available ? Final drive ratio can be changed to 4.17 improve acceleration. See here

Roll-bar question
- Same support for Vx as for Elise S2 ( petty bar, A-frame etc ? ) Hmmm. You may run into some problems here. There was talk of an A frame and petty bar becoming available but I haven't seen or heard anything since. Full roll cage is available but won't be the lightest option.

Edited by techieboy, 20 July 2009 - 03:12 PM.

[techieboy]

Roll-bar question
- Same support for Vx as for Elise S2 ( petty bar, A-frame etc ? ) Hmmm. You may run into some problems here. There was talk of an A frame and petty bar becoming available but I haven't seen or heard anything since. Full roll cage is available but won't be the lightest option.

I think Safety Devices were working on it but can't see anything on their website. Thorney Motorsport can also sort you out with a full cage and maybe have more news on the A-frame.

[Winstar]

Roll-bar question
- Same support for Vx as for Elise S2 ( petty bar, A-frame etc ? ) Hmmm. You may run into some problems here. There was talk of an A frame and petty bar becoming available but I haven't seen or heard anything since. Full roll cage is available but won't be the lightest option.

I think Safety Devices were working on it but can't see anything on their website. Thorney Motorsport can also sort you out with a full cage and maybe have more news on the A-frame.

I'd expect the one Chris Randell uses in his Europa would also fit.