33 replies to this topic

[speedyK]

This bolt-in solution for Speedster/VX is what I've been waiting for. No probs with speakers. No cutting of trim.

The basic bar is 150Euro (without fitting or belts). They offer two options for belt guidance: either they can cut the standard seats (don't fancy that), or they can supply/fit CNC aluminium belt guides(not got any further info yet).

Despite this I know several people have retained the standard seats in Elises and VXs and I was hoping this would be OK...

But members of the german forum have expressed grave reservations about using a 4-point harness with standard seats. The argument being that, because the belt is not held in position by being fed through seat cut-outs, in a severe impact the driver will dive between the belts as they will tend to spread sideways – thus leaving nothing to stop your progress forwards... *shudder*

Anyone think this really is an issue? Would mean VXR seat required (or similar)...

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[stevevx220]

Nice, Who makes it? And is it available in black?

[rubber]

I think the problem with 4 point harness is that it will ride up to your stomach in point of impact. Need the floor mount really imo. Does sound good though, get the 340r seats and away you go. Ian

[speedyK]

Nice, Who makes it? And is it available in black?

It's plastic-coated – should be able to do it in balck instead of clear...

HERE – 'fraid they've not got round top putting it on the English version of the site yet.

[speedyK]

I know several people have retained the standard seats in Elises and VXs and I was hoping this would be OK...

Here's a system for the Elise from the renowned Swiss Lotus dealer and Historic GP contestant, Fredy Kumschick shown with standard seats.

By implication, that's OK – would have hoped he wouldn't promote anything that wasn't a safe package – notice how the belts dpn't wrap around the bar, but have bolted mountings to prevent spreading at the bar.This seems to be a standard solution on Swiss Elises with retained standard seats – though when we last discussed this, someone (possibly paulB?) made the point that they could rattle.

OTOH, if you look at the small print on most racing products, it tends to say that no protection is guarranteed or even implied, and no claims or comeback can be made in the event of injury or death...

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[stevevx220]

Im sure im being thick but where do the lower parts of the harness fit?

[m7mini]

Im sure im being thick but where do the lower parts of the harness fit?

To the standard seat belt mounts i presume

[paulb]

I would certainly not be willing to use wrap around harnesses with no cutouts to hold them in place. They can spread during an impact and leave you eating the steering wheel... Either seats with cutouts or bolt in seem to be the way to go. A strong machined block with two slots milled in it (Speedy's CNC option) would also strike me as a good approach. Bolt ins do rattle, which is why I went for wraps... Paul

[speedyK]

I would certainly not be willing to use wrap around harnesses with no cutouts to hold them in place.

The first guy on the German forum to get the harness bar has tried wraparound belts and says, "No way you can do it without cut-outs".

Further opinions have been expressed in relation to this with 4-point belts being very much queried as a safe solution. The argument that, for anti-submarining on impact, 5- or 6-point harnesses are essential does sound to have some credibility.

Anyone in a position to comment?

[Thorney]

You basically have 2 choices: Bolt in or wrap arounds. Personally I prefer wraps as bolts always rattle like buggery but in order to use wraps you need a method of preventing the belt from slipping from the shoulder in an impact. This means either cut outs in the seat or welded guides (though which the wrap feeds). Without either of these things with wraps then THE SEAT BELT IS DANGEROUS. There, I said it. What happens in an impact is as Paul describes, whilst the belt will be tight (I doubt it will be tight enough, most people fail to realise that static belts need to border on the uncomfortably tight to have real safey) the body is thrown forwards and the belts are free enough to simply slide off the body slamming you into the steering wheel. This isn't 'submarining' as such, thats when the body slides under the belt, this is prevented by decently fitting top harnesses or by using a 6 point (one point goes under the crotch) - however these are bloody uncomfortable (for obvious reasons). I think I'd rather smack my head against the windscreen than have my testicles shot through the roof of my mouth ) If I read this right then someone in Germany? has wrap belts, no cutouts on the seat and no guides on the bar? If so then I doubt most racetracks (assuming they scrutineer the car) will let him out and the worse case scenario will be a funeral in the event of a bad enough crash.

[Ricky2772]

having standard seats, I obviously have bolt-ons... they work pretty well, but I chose to attach (sewed-on) an extra overlapping strap, along with sturdy velcro at mid-chest height, so there is no more tendency to spread out....

[WoodenDummy]

It's amazes me how many Novas etc with harnesses fitted have the 2 upper attachments of the belts mounted lower than the shoulders.

[speedyK]

belts are free enough to simply slide off the body slamming you into the steering wheel.

This isn't 'submarining' as such, thats when the body slides under the belt, this is prevented by decently fitting top harnesses or by using a 6 point (one point goes under the crotch)

Hmmm... I perhaps didn't express it clearly. Sorry.

From what I've learned in the last couple of days, 4-points , even if bolted, without cut-outs are seriously compromised. I'm just surprised that I've seen so many Elise with that set-up.

I realise what submarining is – I just phrased the whole post badly . The point I was trying to make is that, even with cut-outs, there is no anti-submarining effect on a 4-point belt, so that a crotch strap would be required to rule it out. The only car I've ever driven with a crotch-strap was a GT3 and, to my surprise, it was not uncomfortable – and no I haven't got microgenitalia Thing is, I've procreated enough, so think I actually prefer taking the risk of squashed goolies to being strangled/decapitated by the harness

What I was trying to ask is other peoples' experiences and I'm interested to know if anyone has actually used or fitted a 5-/6-point to a VX/Elise and how involved the mounting of the additional straps is (to seat frame or floor or what???). E.g. Do the Palmersport cars only have 4-points?

Edited by speedyK, 05 May 2004 - 06:29 PM.

[speedyK]

It's amazes me how many Novas etc with harnesses fitted have the 2 upper attachments of the belts mounted lower than the shoulders.

AFAIK, ideally they should be lower to prevent you from moving out of the harness if you roll it.

[WoodenDummy]

DOH I meant HIGHER! God i'm a dumb ass, sorry typed as was making/eating food. I've seen some really bad setups before, but they don't seem to like being told. In fact some people got darn right rude about it. I hope they just mount them for show.

Edited by WoodenDummy, 05 May 2004 - 06:40 PM.

[speedyK]

Latest info I've found on the german forum:

They reckon to mount 5-/6-point, youz have to remove the seat and fit a steel mounting plate with the threads to take the normed attachments for the harness. Reckon this means drilling 12mm holes to mount adequately.

But apparently, you can get 4-points with "asm" (anti-submarining) from Schroth (who supply five F1 teams) and you only need more if you are doing something like rallying... hmmm...



Edit to add link to SCHROTH

Edited by speedyK, 05 May 2004 - 06:58 PM.

[barrybethel]

This bar looks very similar to the Tollbar Racing bar I have had on my car now since November 03. I have to say though my bar looks nicer, in powder coated black with immaculate welds. My bar also has bolt in harness mounts. I use very broad Willans Silverstone 4 point harnesses and I would be very surprised if they were to seperate during an impact sufficiently to allow me to pass between them. One thing I would raise though. My bar was the first that Tollbar made and so was used to create a jig. Unfortunately when another car came in to Tollbar for a bar an off the shelf item identical to mine did not fit as the top seatbelt mounts are in very slightly different places. It is likely that the seatbelt mounting points are different on a lot of cars. For this reason Tollbar will not sell bars mail order. Instead, customers have to take the car to Derbyshire for a fitting. I wonder if the manufacturers of this other bar realise this? Incidentally I use standard seats. If anyone is interested I did post some pictures of my bar (with the old harness Tollbar loaned me, I have a new one now, much nicer) which I'm sure could be found with a search.

[speedyK]

I would be very surprised

More than that I would have thought... perhaps

horrified?

No, seriously. With the standard seats, the belts are displaced further out on your shoulders than would be the case with cut-outs, aren't they? Even with 3" wide belts, could this not be a problem if your shoulders slip backwards and flex inwards under extreme loading at impact so that your torso is left unrestrained and can pivot forward around the lap belts?

Thing is I don't want to get a harness solution that holds me better on a track than a 3-point, but is actually less safe if it comes to the crunch.

I'm not trying to be negative – just think it is well worth knowing what's what with something like this.

Any one ever had or heard of such probs with 4-point systems?

[barrybethel]

I have just thought of something. I have seen a lot of racing cars that use "bag" type seats which dont have harness cut outs. You know the type - the seat is poured and you sit in it to mould it until it sets to your body shape. These seats are commonplace and you would think they wouldn't get past scrutineering if not having guides in seat backs made them dangerous. I'm also sure that a lot of Caterhams have low back seats without harness slots but still run harnesses. Are you sure you're not worrying about nothing here? If your belts are bolted to the bar are 3 inches thick and are TIGHT then you will be safe IMO

[Ricky2772]

hey K, you can always retain the standard belts, like I did, and buckle'em up ON TOP of the others....that would make you safer than fort knox....