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Master Cylinder Replacement Advice


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#1 karlbac

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Posted 06 July 2016 - 08:19 PM

Hi

I have in mind to replace my brake master cylinder with 2 differents master cylinders one for the front and one for the rear

and also replace the clutch master cylinder at the same time

Of course I'll delete the servo unit

 

So I would need advices about the bore I should use for the three master cylinders

We can find a lot of formula on internet but empiricism is much more interesting and time saver as each car is different

 

My pedal ratio will be 6.25

My front calipers are EP 4 pots 36 + 40

And I install the front calipers at the rear



#2 jbt

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Posted 07 July 2016 - 12:05 PM

I would try a 0.7" front MC and 0.625 rear MC.

 

I have the following combo on my 2002 Elise K-series:

AP Lotus BBK 4 pot calipers in the front  (36mm and 31.75mm pistons)

standard 2 pot in the rear (44.5mm pistons).

0.625 front and rear Girling MC's

Raceparts balance bar with custom sleeve to fit the elise brake pedal

Tilton 90 coupler

Raceparts cable adjuster

Custom aluminum spacer between pedal box and MC's

 

It's almost the same as stock car in pedal travel and feel.

I kept the the clutch MC and used a reservoir from a speedster

 

Are you going to use the pedal box from a elise with manual brakes or a custom pedal setup? 

 

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#3 karlbac

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Posted 07 July 2016 - 05:16 PM

Thank you very interesting feedback

I'll use wilwood pedal to make a custom pedal box because this F******* steering column we can't use a standard pedal box and I want to conserve a firewall or overhung position

And with the vx we have any other bits we have to do with like the clutch switch or fbw sensor and it's not easy to fit a pedal box

 

Do you block your wheel easily without ABS and this brake setting ?



#4 Nev

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Posted 07 July 2016 - 07:34 PM

This desire to eliminate servo assistance always baffles me. I've driven a non-servoed fast car and it's brakes were worry some as the amount of foot pressure required was really substancial.

 

Trying to stop 1 ton of hurtling metal with 1 human leg seems somewhat "underpowered" to me!


Edited by Nev, 07 July 2016 - 07:40 PM.


#5 The Batman

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Posted 07 July 2016 - 07:36 PM

mine isnt fast in comparison to you big boys, but i have no servo and its awesome :)



#6 Nev

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Posted 07 July 2016 - 07:41 PM

mine isnt fast in comparison to you big boys, but i have no servo and its awesome :)

 

Seriously? Can you lock it all out at 150+ if you had to ?  



#7 The Batman

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Posted 07 July 2016 - 07:46 PM

i doubt i can get to 150+ :lol:



#8 Mopeytitan

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Posted 07 July 2016 - 08:52 PM

Surely you don't want to lock the wheels up at 150?!

#9 ginek

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Posted 07 July 2016 - 09:19 PM

This desire to eliminate servo assistance always baffles me. I've driven a non-servoed fast car and it's brakes were worry some as the amount of foot pressure required was really substancial.

 

Trying to stop 1 ton of hurtling metal with 1 human leg seems somewhat "underpowered" to me!

 

I know it's misleading. Try calculating. All what leg does is pressing and holding firmly break pads to disc (using nicely engineered hydraulic power transfer system). Then friction between the pad and disc transfer car's kinetic energy into heat. Certainly easier to stop the car this way, than James Bond jumping into an elevator pit and catching himself on the cable with hands..

 

I'd certainly like to do such conversion as well, somewhere in future.



#10 Nev

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Posted 07 July 2016 - 09:52 PM

 

This desire to eliminate servo assistance always baffles me. I've driven a non-servoed fast car and it's brakes were worry some as the amount of foot pressure required was really substancial.

 

Trying to stop 1 ton of hurtling metal with 1 human leg seems somewhat "underpowered" to me!

 

I know it's misleading. Try calculating. All what leg does is pressing and holding firmly break pads to disc (using nicely engineered hydraulic power transfer system). Then friction between the pad and disc transfer car's kinetic energy into heat. Certainly easier to stop the car this way, than James Bond jumping into an elevator pit and catching himself on the cable with hands..

 

I'd certainly like to do such conversion as well, somewhere in future.

 

 

Hmmm.

 

There is a strong reason why most fast cars from the 1950s have servo assisted brakes....

 

I have strong servo assistance and also a strong pedal to slave piston ratio, but when I REALLY need to brake hard even that isn't enough, IMO.

 

 

 

 

 



#11 The Batman

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Posted 07 July 2016 - 11:23 PM

Nev welcome to come on track with me and I will show you how hard ya can push non servo brakes :)

#12 Jason

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Posted 08 July 2016 - 05:36 AM

I think it's similar to the argument for power steering. You get more feel without the assistance and more accurate braking. It will of course at 1st feel like no brakes but you just need to recalibrate your feet...

Edited by Jason, 08 July 2016 - 05:37 AM.


#13 D-DAWG83

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Posted 08 July 2016 - 06:46 AM

Drove me mates S1 Elise a few weeks back, and the brakes initially scared me, as they didnt seem to work. They do, you just have to push alot further and harder.

#14 Nev

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Posted 08 July 2016 - 07:02 AM

Surely you don't want to lock the wheels up at 150?!

 

In an emergency only hopefully, not on a daily trip to the shops ! LOL



#15 Pidgeon

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Posted 08 July 2016 - 07:10 AM

 

 

 

Hmmm.

 

There is a strong reason why most fast cars from the 1950s have servo assisted brakes....

 

 

 

 

 

 

The strong reason is so women can drive them and manufacturers sell more cars.  Porsche turbos have servo assistance on the clutch.  GT3 doesn't.

 

I have no technical back up for this, but I doubt in track conditions (i.e. maximum pedal pressure from the leg) the servo is making any contribution.  It's there to reduce pedal pressure required in day to day driving.



#16 Mopeytitan

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Posted 08 July 2016 - 09:49 AM

Most race cars won't have servo assisted will they? Don't they claim that when braking hard the force of the car stopping and you moving forward helps apply more pressure to the brake pedal. Not sure if that reads how I'm trying to explain it :lol:

#17 Nev

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Posted 08 July 2016 - 09:54 AM

 

I have no technical back up for this, but I doubt in track conditions (i.e. maximum pedal pressure from the leg) the servo is making any contribution.  It's there to reduce pedal pressure required in day to day driving.

 

 

Huh? The servo is always contributing as a force multiplier, it makes no distinction between day to day driving or hard braking.

 

Maybe you ought to read Jimmy's results when he eliminated his servo. Once he realised how nasty it was he put the servo straight back in!

 


Edited by Nev, 08 July 2016 - 10:17 AM.


#18 Arno

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Posted 08 July 2016 - 12:23 PM

Maybe you ought to read Jimmy's results when he eliminated his servo. Once he realised how nasty it was he put the servo straight back in!

If he kept the same master cylinder and just removed the servo then that's to be expected and normal behaviour. With a servo you also use an 'oversized' MC as the servo adds the force but the bigger MC increases the fluid displacement but this limits travel which pretty much cancel eachother out again. The servo already gives a lot of slack/travel when operating, but if it's removed without changing the MC then you end up with a rock-hard, immovable pedal and little braking. When going from a servo to a non-assisted setup you also always have to change the MC size to a (much) smaller one. This results in slightly longer travel in the MC (but usually still a little less than with a servo and little or  no 'dead' space in the pedal travel) and a different (more linear) hydraulic pressure buildup.

 

But in the end the hydraulic pressures in the system wether they are assisted or un-assisted are very similar. (except for some early oddball ABS systems that always worked with hydraulic pump generated pressures that were indirectly modulated by the pedal..)

 

With similar hydraulic pressures in the system, the pads also have similar pressures/clamping on the discs and similar friction and retardation.

 

It's just that the way the system feels is completely opposite and different people like different setups.

 

The main reason for servo'd brakes with their big MC's is that they offer a more non-linear brake response that's very good for general road use.

 

A small/light brake pedal application quickly results in fairly strong retardation (safety!), but the tradeoff is that after the initial application (depending on how agressive the servo is set up) it may not feel much different anymore when pressing down harder and makes modulating the brake pressure hard. Once the servo 'actuates' it pretty much adds a certain force to your own which is much bigger.

 

VW/Audi/VAG's are notorious for this where just blowing air on the brake pedal puts your head through the windscreen, but pressing harder really doesn't feel much different. So you get to 70-75% of your maximum hydraulic pressure with 30-40% of pedal force, but the remaining 25-30% of hydraulic pressure in the system is 'spread out' over the remaining range of pedal pressures which is not that noticable.

 

Actually a lot of studies have shown that most drivers never go over 50-70% of the expected pedal force for full brake actuation even right before a crash, which is why all current new cars now have automatic brake-assist which simply opens a second valve in the servo if the pedal is pressed fast enough (even at a low force) and that simply applies the maximum force the servo can all at once to the MC to get to an (artificial) 90+% effective pedal pressure on the MC in a panic situation.

 

An un-assisted setup feels quite the opposite.. Low brake pedal force results in feeling resistance in the pedal, but little retardation. Pressing on the pedal and increasing the force only moves the pedal a little but more-or-less (depending on pad type, etc.) linearly increases the hydraulic pressures and as a result the retardation but also the opposite where for instance on going into a corner and trail-braking you can gently reduce the pressure on the pedal and have a controlled reduction (and release) of the brakes.

 

Both setups will lock the wheels if dimensioned properly or if you brake agressively enough to 'shock' the wheels to a stop.

 

Best-of-both-worlds is something like the BOSCH motorsport ABS which allows you to run an ABS (and stability control) system but keep the un-assisted brake setup for best pedal feel and control. (very, very pricey though..)

 

Still.. I can well imagine that endurance racers are happy to sacrifice some pedal feel and brake control for being able to get 70% of the brake force at 30% of the leg pressure in their cars, just like power steering in these helps to combat fatigue by sacrificing some feedback.

 

Is one 'better' than the other? Different.. That's all...

 

Bye, Arno.



#19 FLD

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Posted 08 July 2016 - 03:56 PM

I've had non-servo bias brake cars before and it's just a case of careful cylinder selection. Not to challenging but can be costly in cylinders. WRT bias in a Vx I always thought a slave sway bar was the best option. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#20 Doctor Ed

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Posted 08 July 2016 - 06:24 PM

What's a slave sway bar?




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