41 replies to this topic

[Greg_j_com]

I've been looking for some canards to go on the front of my vx220 to provide a little more turn in bite and help counter high speed front end lift which makes the steering noticeable lighten on my car due to the fairly sizable rear end aero package even with nitro stocks installed. Obviously venting off the low pressure in front wheel arches using louvers is another solution but not the biggest fan of them on aesthetics grounds and I'm thinking I should try some canards first as this may also help with lower speed turn in bite as well as providing a turbulent airstream down past the wheels.
Struggling to find a canard which will fit the VX bumper, any suggestions on this or canards Vs louvers much appreciated

[Doctor Ed]

canards are primarily vortex generators. splitters make downforce

[CocoPops]

Without causing offence Greg...
It's likely that you're not the first to consider this route.
Not many have gone down canard route, instead there are a few splitter options now, bearing in mind these cars have had best part of 18yrs of people trying things.

[Nev]

Forward rake might help a bit, I'd be amazed if canards did anything noticable until a very high speed indeed.

[Aerodynamic]

canards are primarily vortex generators. splitters make downforce

 

Hi Ed, could you explaine how these works and why you want canard wings then?

 

For example they removed these canards on exige v6 430 but had them or earlier cars.

 

 

Have you check the Greek Company North plastic or what there name is, they have front vents thats is going inwards instead.

 

Br, Per

[MAXR]

Well, since fitting 4 canards on the front of my VX several years ago, I've been happy with my car's additional high speed cornering ability. I did also have a splitter attached some time before the canards were fitted! So as a comparison, they did give a tangable improvement.

I did read up on what benefits they had before having them fitted. Most noticeable at Corum at Snetterton.

[Doctor Ed]

Canards create vortexes down the side of the car. They'll reduce drag in the front wheel well, they'll improve the aerodynamic seal along the side sills/skirts to improve underbody flow, and they'll alter flow into the rear scoops. Why one car hadn't them and the other didn't is a near impossible question without sitting down and studying the whole aero package.

As far as downforce is concerned... sure they're angled into the wind, so there'll be some force on them. But firstly they're tiny, so even a huge pressure will have little effect on a small surface, and then even if you managed to make huge ones, they've got to be able to transfer that load to the body. I doubt your typical canard would hold more than a couple of kilos before breaking off. Rule of thumb for a splitter for eg - you should be able to stand on it.

[SteveA]

lower speed turn in bite as well as providing a turbulent airstream down past the wheels.

 

Aero doesn't work at low speeds (< 60mph.)

[Spitfire Engineering]

If you want an indication of what 60 mph does to a small area just stick a hand out of the window, i.e not much.

If you like the style etc that's another matter but I wouldn't expect anything in terms of beneficial aerodynamics until you are at high speed and with a whole package of aerodynamic surfaces working with each other.

 

Unfortunately wishful thinking, confirmation bias and comparative tests based on human memory are not much to really go on compared to data logging.

 

 

But never underestimate the placebo effect!  

Edited by Spitfire Engineering, 11 October 2018 - 03:07 PM.

[Aerodynamic]

What a strange thing to say. First it must work from almost 0.
The question is from which speed you start to feel it and actually gain from it. And this is ofcourse dependent from car to car.
But I say around 40-45mph and above.

lower speed turn in bite as well as providing a turbulent airstream down past the wheels.

Aero doesn't work at low speeds (< 60mph.)

[fiveoclock]

What a strange thing to say. First it must work from almost 0.
The question is from which speed you start to feel it and actually gain from it. And this is ofcourse dependent from car to car.
But I say around 40-45mph and above.
 

 

lower speed turn in bite as well as providing a turbulent airstream down past the wheels.

Aero doesn't work at low speeds (< 60mph.)

 

That's obviously what he meant

[SteveA]

Words from someone with a great deal more understanding of aero than you or I;

 

Simon Saunders (The boss of Ariel) said recently of their Atom "We do an aerofoil package that increases drag by 15 per cent, so in performance terms it slows you down. And they don't work until you're doing 60-70mph. By removing them you've got a faster, more efficient car,"

[Doctor Ed]

drag you can overcome with hp

 

hp will not help you get around corners

[chris_uk]

Aerodynamics isn't like an on off switch, you don't get to 45mph and all of a sudden have downforce... negative lift on a car is only "effective" at a certain speeds and obviously until you get to the "effective speed" you have to overcome the drag caused by bolting on the wings etc.  and i'm sure that's what they Ariel mean.The air flowing over the component (wing, Splitter etc) is always happening from the minute you start moving. 

 

as for whether the canards are worth it... basic answer is "maybe", canards are there to create a counter clockwise (iirc) vortex down the side of the car, stopping air going into your wheel arch and creating a barrier down the side of the car to stop the air from going underneath the car.. 

 

if you want real downforce on the vx imo you need to do a number of things;

 

• create an with airdam and splitter protruding between 100mm and 150mm, it is important that this splitter (regardless of length) is strong enough to withstand at least 100kg (imo) so go and make it, then stand on it, if it breaks its not good enough.
• create a barrier (sideskirt) to reduce the amount of air being pulled under the car.
• create a strong connection to the chassis for your wing so that any negative lift is transferred to your chassis rather than the clam.. (its important to choose a wing which has a good profile) 
• reduce wheel arch pressure, either by louvres or gurneys on the wheel arch. or both. (look at the seat leon supercopa) 

a coupe or something to help the flow over the car to the wing is ideal, its just a shame they are heavy.. there are loads of other tweaks you can do like a small gurney flap under the rear wing, multi-element wings, etc.. but the main thing you have to understand is that no 2 cars are the same (unless you make them that way) and one thing which works on one might not work the same way on another, take my car and nevs car for instance.. putting canards on mine is almost pointless but Nev would probably find more of an advantage due to not having side skirts.

Edited by chris_uk, 14 October 2018 - 09:50 AM.

[Greg_j_com]

Thanks all for a very rounded discussion. Having thought about it I can see how the VX mainly benefits from improving ground effect, to that end I'm planning to increase the splitter projection and put on some decent side skirts. Regards the lifting at high speeds it would seem the only way to go is Gurney's or louvers so I'll have to factor that into my plans, think I will have a play with some cannards but much more as a vortex generating device to work along side the skirts

Cheers

G

[Doctor Ed]

ist not really ground effect

People like to call it that, but it's not. the only cars that used actual ground effect were that spastic F1s of the 70's. what youre dealing with is simply controling underbody flow, and making effective use of a good diffuser (diffuser /= ground effect)

/nit picking

[siztenboots]

I would start with the free modifications and increase the rake , raise the rear 

[Aerodynamic]

Lower the front.

I would start with the free modifications and increase the rake , raise the rear

[cucharillas]

Hi Chris,

How its your sideskirts attached ?

By using this on the side wall and then, another curved plate(sideskirt) to remove and install easily?

 

 

I´ve bought a 160cm wing with swan neck mounts with 80cm between mounts.

There are 83 cm between pilars of rear subchassis, so I´m designing custom plates.

 

 

 

Edited by cucharillas, 16 September 2019 - 09:54 AM.

[chris_uk]

I used M6 rivnuts .. lots of them.