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#1 Rosssco

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 10:21 AM

Is anyone using a returnless fuel system in their VX?

 

I'm looking at converting to a returnless system (as the engine I have runs returnless).

 

One option is to run a FPR after the fuel filter with an output and return, but wondered if an upgraded fuel pump in the OEM canister can operate without a return.?



#2 Exmantaa

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 01:42 PM

What engine is that? Can you not convert to return system?

#3 Arno

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 02:15 PM

Most Honda converted Elises run as you describe as the K20 uses a dead-head setup from the factory: Just fit a regulator right after the fuel filter and 'T' off to the fuel rail on the engine.

 

As the engine was designed to run this way there's a pulse damper on the fuel rail to mitigate the shockwaves from the injectors opening and closing.

 

Although for boosted setups and higher power N/A's many do convert to a flow-through style rail.

 

If you want to keep it in 1 piece there's a few combined filter/regulators out there for some BMW's and such that perform the same function in 1 go.

 

All in the tank can be done if you were to fit a Toyota-Elise tank as they have this. Disadvantage is that the fuel filter also goes into the tank, so you can't access it easily anymore.

 

44_03.gif

 

Number 4 on here..

 

Different fitment style AFAIK than the VX tank so just fitting the canister and pump probably not an option.

 

Bye, Arno.



#4 Rosssco

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 02:44 PM

What engine is that? Can you not convert to return system?

 

 

Most Honda converted Elises run as you describe as the K20 uses a dead-head setup from the factory: Just fit a regulator right after the fuel filter and 'T' off to the fuel rail on the engine.

 

As the engine was designed to run this way there's a pulse damper on the fuel rail to mitigate the shockwaves from the injectors opening and closing.

 

Although for boosted setups and higher power N/A's many do convert to a flow-through style rail.

 

If you want to keep it in 1 piece there's a few combined filter/regulators out there for some BMW's and such that perform the same function in 1 go.

 

All in the tank can be done if you were to fit a Toyota-Elise tank as they have this. Disadvantage is that the fuel filter also goes into the tank, so you can't access it easily anymore.

 

44_03.gif

 

Number 4 on here..

 

Different fitment style AFAIK than the VX tank so just fitting the canister and pump probably not an option.

 

Bye, Arno.

 

Its a direct injection engine so no option to go return unless its on the LP side before the HP fuel pump..

 

A bit of searching and Doctor Ed with his A20NFT is using a combo filter / regulator similar to the one below. This seems like a good solution, as putting the filter in with the pump isn't ideal (although the replacement durations are quite long in normal use).

 

https://www.speedway...PSI,375656.html


Edited by Rosssco, 06 January 2020 - 02:44 PM.


#5 BadCop

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 10:25 PM

You can also use the Fuel Pump Flow Control Module of the Astra VXR.

Just wire in the CAN Bus.

Will generate Flow on demand in a modern returnless System.

You can even change the Fuel pressure based on maps.

Much more efficient, less Amps, less wear, less noise, cold Fuel.

#6 BadCop

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 10:39 PM

A20NFT Fuel System Description

 

 

Fuel System Overview
The fuel system is an electronic returnless on-demand design. A returnless fuel system reduces the internal temperature of the fuel tank by not returning hot fuel from the engine to the fuel tank. Reducing the internal temperature of the fuel tank results in lower evaporative emissions.
An electric turbine style fuel pump attaches to the fuel pump module inside the fuel tank. The fuel pump supplies fuel through the fuel feed pipe to the high pressure fuel pump. The high pressure fuel pump supplies fuel to a variable-pressure fuel rail. Fuel enters the combustion chamber through precision multi-hole fuel injectors. The high pressure fuel pump, fuel rail pressure, fuel injection timing, and injection duration are controlled by the engine control module (ECM).

 

Electronic Returnless Fuel System
The electronic returnless fuel system is a microprocessor controlled fuel delivery system which transports fuel from the tank to the fuel rail. It functions as an electronic replacement for a traditional, mechanical fuel pressure regulator. A pressure relief regulator valve within the fuel tank provides an added measure of over pressure protection. Desired fuel pressure is commanded by the engine control module (ECM), and transmitted to the fuel pump flow control module via a GMLAN serial data message. A liquid fuel pressure sensor provides the feedback the fuel pump flow control module requires for Closed Loop fuel pressure control.
Fuel Pump Flow Control Module
The fuel pump flow control module is a serviceable GMLAN module. The fuel pump flow control module receives the desired fuel pressure message from the engine control module (ECM) and controls the fuel pump located within the fuel tank to achieve the desired fuel pressure. The fuel pump flow control module sends a 25 kHzPWM signal to the fuel pump, and pump speed is changed by varying the duty cycle of this signal. Maximum current supplied to the fuel pump is 15 A. A liquid fuel pressure sensor provides fuel pressure feedback to the fuel pump flow control module.

 

Fuel Pressure Sensor
The fuel pressure sensor is a serviceable 5 V, 3-pin device. It is located on the fuel feed line forward of the fuel tank, and receives power and ground from the fuel pump flow control module through a vehicle wiring harness. The sensor provides a fuel pressure signal to the fuel pump flow control module, which is used to provide Closed Loop fuel pressure control.

 

Flex Fuel Sensor
The flex fuel sensor measures the ethanol-gasoline ratio of the fuel being used in a flexible fuel vehicle. Flexible fuel vehicles can be operated with a blend of ethanol and gasoline, up to 85 percent ethanol. In order to adjust the ignition timing and the fuel quantity to be injected, the engine management system requires information about the percentage of ethanol in the fuel.
The flex fuel sensor uses quick-connect style fuel connections, an incoming fuel connection, and an outgoing fuel connection. All fuel passes through the flex fuel sensor before continuing on to the fuel rail. The flex fuel sensor measures the fuel alcohol content, and sends an electrical signal to the engine control module (ECM) to indicate ethanol percentage.
The flex fuel sensor has a three-wire electrical harness connector. The three wires provide a ground circuit, a power source, and a signal output to the ECM. The power source is battery positive voltage and the ground circuit connects to an engine ground. The signal circuit carries the ethanol percentage via a frequency signal.
The flex fuel sensor uses a microprocessor inside the sensor to measure the ethanol percentage and changes the output signal accordingly. The ECM provides an internal pull-up to 5 V on the signal circuit, and the flex fuel sensor pulls the 5V to ground in pulses. The normal range of operating frequency is between 50 and 150 Hz, with 50Hz representing 0 percent ethanol, and 150Hz representing 100 percent ethanol.
The microprocessor inside the sensor is capable of a certain amount of self-diagnosis. An output frequency between 180Hz and 190Hz indicates that the fuel is contaminated. Certain substances dissolved in the fuel can cause the fuel to be contaminated, raising the output frequency higher than the actual ethanol percentage should indicate. Examples of these substances include water, sodium chloride (salt), and methanol.
It should be noted that it is likely that the flex fuel sensor will indicate a slightly lower ethanol percentage than what is advertised at the fueling station. This is not a fault of the sensor. The reason has to do with government requirements for alcohol-based motor fuels. Government regulations require that alcohol intended for use as motor fuel be denatured. This means that 100 percent pure ethanol is first denatured with approximately 4½percent gasoline, before being mixed with anything else. When an ethanol gasoline mixture is advertised as E85, the 85 percent ethanol was denatured before being blended with gasoline, meaning an advertised E85 fuel contains only about 81 percent ethanol. The flex fuel sensor measures the actual percentage of ethanol in the fuel.

 

Fuel Tank
The fuel tank stores the fuel supply. The fuel tank is located in the rear of the vehicle. The fuel tank is held in place by 2 metal straps that attach to the underbody of the vehicle. The fuel tank is molded from high-density polyethylene.

 

Fuel Fill Pipe
The fuel fill pipe has a built-in restrictor in order to prevent refueling with leaded fuel.

 

Fuel Filler Cap
The fuel fill pipe has a tethered fuel filler cap. A torque-limiting device prevents the cap from being over-tightened. To install the cap, turn the cap clockwise until you hear audible clicks. This indicates that the cap is correctly torqued and fully seated.

 

Fuel Pump Module
An electric turbine style fuel pump attaches to the fuel pump module inside the fuel tank. The fuel pump supplies fuel through the fuel feed pipe to the high pressure fuel pump. The fuel pump module contains a reverse flow check valve. The check valve maintains fuel pressure in the fuel feed pipe in order to prevent long cranking times.
The fuel pump module consists of the following major components:
• The fuel level sensor
• The fuel pump and reservoir assembly
• The fuel filter
• The pressure relief regulator valve

 

Fuel Level Sensor
The fuel level sensor consists of a float, a wire float arm, and a ceramic resistor card. The position of the float arm indicates the fuel level. The fuel level sensor contains a variable resistor which changes resistance in correspondence with the position of the float arm. The engine control module (ECM) sends the fuel level information via the High Speed CAN-Bus to the body control module (BCM). The BCM then sends the fuel level percentage via the Low Speed CAN-Bus to the instrument cluster in order to control the fuel gauge.

 

Fuel Pump
The fuel pump is mounted in the fuel pump module reservoir. The fuel pump is an electric pump. Fuel is pumped to the high pressure fuel pump at a pressure that is based on feedback from the fuel pressure sensor. The fuel pump delivers a constant flow of fuel even during low fuel conditions and aggressive vehicle maneuvers. The fuel pump flex pipe acts to dampen the fuel pulses and noise generated by the fuel pump.

 

Pressure Relief Regulator Valve
The pressure relief regulator valve replaces the typical fuel pressure regulator used on a mechanical returnless fuel system. The pressure relief regulator valve is closed during normal vehicle operation. The pressure relief regulator valve is used to vent pressure during hot soaks and also functions as a fuel pressure regulator in the event of the fuel pump flow control module defaulting to 100percent pulse width modulation (PWM) of the fuel pump. Due to variation in the fuel system pressures, the opening pressure for the pressure relief regulator valve is set higher than the pressure that is used on a mechanical returnless fuel system pressure regulator.

 

Nylon Fuel Pipes
Warning: In order to reduce the risk of fire and personal injury observe the following items: • Replace all nylon fuel pipes that are nicked, scratched or damaged during installation, do not attempt to repair the sections of the nylon fuel pipes • Do not hammer directly on the fuel harness body clips when installing new fuel pipes. Damage to the nylon pipes may result in a fuel leak.
• Always cover nylon vapor pipes with a wet towel before using a torch near them. Also, never expose the vehicle to temperatures higher than 115°C (239°F) for more than one hour, or more than 90°C (194°F) for any extended period.
• Apply a few drops of clean engine oil to the male pipe ends before connecting fuel pipe fittings. This will ensure proper reconnection and prevent a possible fuel leak. (During normal operation, the O-rings located in the female connector will swell and may prevent proper reconnection if not lubricated.)
Nylon pipes are constructed to withstand maximum fuel system pressure, exposure to fuel additives, and changes in temperature.
Heat resistant rubber hose or corrugated plastic conduit protect the sections of the pipes that are exposed to chafing, high temperature, or vibration.
Nylon fuel pipes are somewhat flexible and can be formed around gradual turns under the vehicle. However, if nylon fuel pipes are forced into sharp bends, the pipes kink and restrict the fuel flow. Also, once exposed to fuel, nylon pipes may become stiffer and are more likely to kink if bent too far. Take special care when working on a vehicle with nylon fuel pipes.

 

Quick-Connect Fittings
Quick-connect fittings provide a simplified means of installing and connecting fuel system components. The fittings consist of a unique female connector and a compatible male pipe end. O-rings, located inside the female connector, provide the fuel seal. Integral locking tabs inside the female connector hold the fittings together.

 

High Pressure Fuel Pump
The high pressure fuel pump is a mechanical one-cylinder design driven by an additional three lobe cam on the camshaft. High pressure fuel is regulated by the high pressure fuel pump actuator, which is a part of the high pressure fuel pump. The high pressure fuel pump actuator is a magnetic actuator which controls the inlet valve of the high pressure fuel pump. The ECM provides battery voltage on the actuator high control circuit and ground on the actuator low control circuit. Both circuits are controlled through output drivers within the ECM. When deactivated, both drivers are disabled and the inlet valve is held open with spring pressure. When activated, the high control circuit driver energizes the high pressure fuel pump actuator and the low control circuit driver pulse-width modulates (PWM) the low control circuit to ground. The ECM uses the camshaft and the crankshaft position sensor inputs to synchronize the actuator with the position of each of the three camshaft lobes. The ECM regulates fuel pressure by adjusting the portion of each pump stroke that provides fuel to the fuel rail. The high pressure fuel pump also contains an integrated pressure relief valve.

 

Fuel Rail Assembly
The fuel rail assembly attaches to the cylinder head. The fuel rail distributes high pressure fuel to the fuel injectors. The fuel rail assembly consists of the following components:
• The direct fuel injectors
• The fuel rail pressure sensor

 

Fuel Injectors
The fuel injection system is a high pressure, direct injection, returnless on-demand design. The fuel injectors are mounted in the cylinder head beneath the intake ports and spray fuel directly into the combustion chamber. Direct injection requires high fuel pressure due to the fuel injector's location in the combustion chamber. Fuel pressure must be higher than compression pressure requiring a high pressure fuel pump. The fuel injectors also require more electrical power due to the high fuel pressure. The ECM supplies a separate high voltage supply circuit and a high voltage control circuit for each fuel injector. The injector high voltage supply circuit and the high voltage control circuit are both controlled by the ECM. The ECM energizes each fuel injector by grounding the control circuit. The ECM controls each fuel injector with 65V. This is controlled by a boost capacitor in the ECM. During the 65 V boost phase, the capacitor is discharged through an injector, allowing for initial injector opening. The injector is then held open with 12V.
The fuel injector assembly is an inside opening electrical magnetic injector. The injector has six precision machined holes that generate a cone shaped oval spray pattern. The fuel injector has a slim extended tip in order to allow a sufficient cooling jacket in the cylinder head.

 

Fuel Injection Fuel Rail Fuel Pressure Sensor
The fuel rail pressure sensor detects fuel pressure within the fuel rail. The engine control module (ECM) provides a 5 V reference voltage on the 5 V reference circuit and ground on the reference ground circuit. The ECM receives a varying signal voltage on the signal circuit. The ECM monitors the voltage on the fuel rail pressure sensor circuits. When the fuel pressure is high, the signal voltage is high. When the fuel pressure is low, the signal voltage is low.
Fuel Pulse Dampener
The fuel pulse dampener is a part of the low pressure fuel feed pipe assembly. The fuel pulse dampener is diaphragm-operated, with fuel pump pressure on one side and with spring pressure on the other side. The function of the dampener is to dampen the fuel pump pressure pulsations.

Fuel Metering Modes of Operation
The control module monitors voltages from several sensors in order to determine how much fuel to give the engine. The control module controls the amount of fuel delivered to the engine by changing the fuel injector pulse width. The fuel is delivered under one of several modes.
Starting Mode
When the ignition is first turned ON, the control module energizes the fuel pump for 2 seconds. This allows the fuel pump to build pressure in the fuel system. The control module calculates the air/fuel ratio based on inputs from the engine coolant temperature (ECT), manifold absolute pressure (MAP), mass air flow (MAF), and throttle position sensors. The system stays in starting mode until the engine speed reaches a predetermined RPM.
During a cold start, the ECM commands dual pulse mode during Open Loop operation to improve cold start emissions. In dual pulse mode, the injectors are energized twice during each injection event.
Clear Flood Mode
If the engine floods, clear the engine by pressing the accelerator pedal down to the floor and then crank the engine. When the throttle position sensor is at wide open throttle (WOT), the control module reduces the fuel injector pulse width in order to increase the air to fuel ratio. The control module holds this injector rate as long as the throttle stays wide open and the engine speed is below a predetermined RPM. If the throttle is not held wide open, the control module returns to the starting mode.
Run Mode
The run mode has 2 conditions called Open Loop and Closed Loop. When the engine is first started and the engine speed is above a predetermined RPM, the system begins Open Loop operation. The control module ignores the signal from the heated oxygen sensor (HO2S). The control module calculates the air/fuel ratio based on inputs from the engine coolant temperature (ECT), manifold absolute pressure (MAP), mass air flow (MAF), and throttle position sensors. The system stays in Open Loop until meeting the following conditions:
• The HO2S has varying voltage output, showing that the HO2S is hot enough to operate properly.
• The ECT sensor is above a specified temperature.
• A specific amount of time has elapsed after starting the engine.
Specific values for the above conditions exist for each different engine, and are stored in the electrically erasable programmable read-only memory (EEPROM). The system begins Closed Loop operation after reaching these values. In Closed Loop, the control module calculates the air/fuel ratio, injector ON time, based upon the signal from various sensors, but mainly from the HO2S. This allows the air/fuel ratio to stay very close to 14.7:1.

Acceleration Mode
When the driver pushes on the accelerator pedal, air flow into the cylinders increases rapidly. To prevent possible hesitation, the control module increases the pulse width to the injectors to provide extra fuel during acceleration. This is also known as power enrichment. The control module determines the amount of fuel required based upon the throttle position, the engine coolant temperature (ECT), the manifold absolute pressure (MAP), the mass air flow (MAF), and the engine speed.

Deceleration Mode
When the driver releases the accelerator pedal, air flow into the engine is reduced. The control module monitors the corresponding changes in the throttle position, the mass air flow (MAF), and the manifold absolute pressure (MAP). The control module shuts OFF fuel completely if the deceleration is very rapid, or for long periods, such as long, closed-throttle coast-down. The fuel shuts OFF in order to prevent damage to the catalytic converters.

Battery Voltage Correction Mode
When the battery voltage is low, the control module compensates for the weak spark delivered by the ignition system in the following ways:
• Increasing the amount of fuel delivered
• Increasing the idle RPM
• Increasing the ignition dwell time

Fuel Cutoff Mode
The control module cuts OFF fuel from the fuel injectors when the following conditions are met in order to protect the powertrain from damage and improve driveability:
• The ignition is OFF. This prevents engine run-on.
• The ignition is ON but there is no ignition reference signal. This prevents flooding or backfiring.
• The engine speed is too high, above red line.
• The vehicle speed is too high, above rated tire speed.
• During an extended, high speed, closed throttle coast down—This reduces emissions and increases engine braking.
• During extended deceleration, in order to prevent damage to the catalytic converters

Fuel Trim
The control module controls the air/fuel metering system in order to provide the best possible combination of driveability, fuel economy, and emission control. The control module monitors the heated oxygen sensor (HO2S) signal voltage while in Closed Loop and regulates the fuel delivery by adjusting the pulse width of the injectors based on this signal. The ideal fuel trim values are around 0 percent for both short and long term fuel trim. A positive fuel trim value indicates the control module is adding fuel in order to compensate for a lean condition by increasing the pulse width. A negative fuel trim value indicates that the control module is reducing the amount of fuel in order to compensate for a rich condition by decreasing the pulse width. A change made to the fuel delivery changes the long and short term fuel trim values. The short term fuel trim values change rapidly in response to the HO2S signal voltage. These changes fine tune the engine fueling. The long term fuel trim makes coarse adjustments to fueling in order to re-center and restore control to short term fuel trim. A scan tool can be used to monitor the short and long term fuel trim values. The long term fuel trim diagnostic is based on an average of several of the long term speed load learn cells. The control module selects the cells based on the engine speed and engine load. If the control module detects an excessively lean or rich condition, the control module will set a fuel trim diagnostic trouble code (DTC).

 


Edited by BadCop, 07 January 2020 - 10:45 PM.


#7 Rosssco

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 10:38 AM

You can also use the Fuel Pump Flow Control Module of the Astra VXR.

Just wire in the CAN Bus.

Will generate Flow on demand in a modern returnless System.

You can even change the Fuel pressure based on maps.

Much more efficient, less Amps, less wear, less noise, cold Fuel.

 
Thanks for the info Dominik. Sounds like the best approach if you can get it working!



#8 BadCop

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 09:47 PM

Easy, just one click on FPCM fitted "YES".

 

I think its even the default setting, because Opel Astra J etc. use it from factory.

Just wire it to the CAN and it works.

 

HYWzAX9.png

 

The magical Fuel Pump Control Module: (about 80 €)

 

 

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Edited by BadCop, 08 January 2020 - 09:49 PM.


#9 Rosssco

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Posted 09 January 2020 - 03:36 PM

Perfect solution if using the A20 engine.! Alas, I'm not, so will go down the traditional regulator route..



#10 Rosssco

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 02:54 PM

For anyone else looking, some VAG cars use a similar integrated 4 bar regulator / fuel filter unit:

 

https://www.ecstunin...ter/6q0201051j/

 

https://www.autodoc....n-filter/964052

 

Perhaps doesn't flow as much as the Corvette filter above, but used in up to 3.2L V6 engine, so would like to think it's good for 300+ bhp cars easily enough.



#11 The Batman

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 05:12 PM

I have a return less fuel rail if you need it :)

#12 Rosssco

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 05:35 PM

I have a return less fuel rail if you need it :)

 
Cheers Joe - its not an Ecotec engine I'm looking at :D



#13 The Batman

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 05:40 PM

Ah ok bud

#14 Spitfire Engineering

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 02:28 PM

The system used on the A20NFT and other VHP systems such as the VW FSI etc use primary pump control to save energy, it does not meter engine fuel and cannot be used in this manner as the lag would always be too great. Engine FPR is carried out at the VHP mechanical pump on the engine via ECU signal.

 

On that basis the idea of fitting the full pump unit, fuel pump control unit, additional pipework and wiring etc rather than just install a simple return line would seem excessive at best   :)

 

For this reason there is no such thing as return less, it's just in some cases the return from the FPR is inside the pump unit rather than an external FPR which will need a line back to the pump/tank.

 

Be careful! the return fuel flow is used on the OE VX pump so it may be a better idea to let us know your plans so you can get guided help?

 

:)

Gaz



#15 Rosssco

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 11:53 AM

Thanks Gaz. That was my understanding of the LP / HP pump system. From a 'completeness' point, a fuel pump controller would be great, but its primarily for pump efficiency and longevity rather than flow / pressure control as you note.

 

Makes you wonder why any form of LP side pressure regulation is required give then HP side may run at 100-200 bar (think the latest systems are even higher for improved fuel atomisation), although many system (like the engine I'm using) has an inlet (LP) side pressure sensor, and will through an error if the basic input pressure is not received (around 3-5 bar in this case).

 

I'm going to probably run a DW65c pump through a VW 4 bar filter regulator. This should (I think) be sufficient at this stage for a sub 400bhp engine.



#16 Exmantaa

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 02:57 PM

Just curious to what engine you're planning now??



#17 Rosssco

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 03:22 PM

Just curious to what engine you're planning now??

 
I'll let you know when I'm a bit further down the feasibility stage.. :D

 

Need to replace the whole car loom first though.. :glare: 






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