Jump to content


Photo

Z22Se 58Mm (Std) And 68Mm Throttle Body Comparison And Weight Loss


  • Please log in to reply
27 replies to this topic

#1 blackoctagon

blackoctagon

    Member

  • Pip
  • 166 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lothian

Posted 19 October 2020 - 01:38 PM

I had the good fortune to get a 65mm throttle off a member on here.

The 65mm throttle (for the few who may still be unaware) is not a straight bolt-on to the z22se inlet manifold.
Plenty has been written about the benefits and drawbacks of using a 65mm, and there are adapter plate photos from other members (from who's work I will crib when I get to that point.)


The 65mm throttle body weight is 0.986kg.
7fb8511356803906.jpg

As a comparison the standard 58mm TB is 0.904kg. Please ignore the dissasembled nature of this TB - it's for a small idea I had.
20f9d91356803918.jpg

Everyone likes a throttle butterfly modification - worth at least 1/10th of a horsepower - and the standard plate weighs in at a porky 0.061kg.
3bc8ff1356803923.jpg

I grit blasted it and then profiled the leading and trailing egdes - sharp (but not razor sharp as you won't get a seal on the venturi) on the leading edge and more slowly tapered on the trailing edge. The throttle shaft wake makes a sharp taper redundant and i'd rather not risk the plate not closing well.
e0c5fe1356803934.jpg

That shaved 0.004kg from the plate to get it down to 0.057kg. Thats a 7% saving.
4538991356803942.jpg
There is a serious point about reducing any rotating mass - the TB motor and return spring have to do work (opening and closing repectively) so less mass is less momentum and should open and close more quickly. I am perfectly happy to admit it will be as good as non-detectable, but I get satisfaction knowing it's (not) there.

Some general post-blasting shots (tape up the venturi, fuel vapour inlet and the electrical connector if you are going to blast).
b287b51356803952.jpg

1f48e31356803959.jpg

0823611356803965.jpg

7ac3721356803969.jpg

Assembled and some material removed from non-essential areas as well as a reduction in areas of the butterfly shaft.
abea821356803982.jpg

Final weight (the butterfly screws are on the scale) is 0.967kg, so still 0.063kg adrift of the 58mm I'm confident there is another 10g to be had, but the real mass is in the motor and throttle shaft.
216a4c1356803990.jpg


Next jobs are to do the adapter plate, the wiring harness extension and the ECU code.

#2 OneYet

OneYet

    Billy No Mates

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,348 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Huskvarna, Sweden

Posted 19 October 2020 - 06:11 PM

I love it!



#3 2-20

2-20

    Billy No Mates

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,314 posts
  • Location:France

Posted 20 October 2020 - 06:16 PM

Unless mistaken, this is not the 65 mm throttle body (LE5 engine) .It's a  68 mm one (LSJ)



#4 blackoctagon

blackoctagon

    Member

  • Pip
  • 166 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lothian

Posted 20 October 2020 - 08:32 PM

Sir,
You are correct.

7e99891356904250.jpg

This is embarassing. I bought it knowing it was 68mm. Didn't do anything with it for months, and then somehow had it in my head that it was 65mm - which is what I actually wanted.


Oh well, look out for a modified 68mm throttle body For Sale thread.......



[MODERATORS - can someone please change the thread title to 68mm, please?]

Edited by blackoctagon, 20 October 2020 - 08:33 PM.


#5 nicollow

nicollow

    ...

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,801 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Edinburgh

Posted 21 October 2020 - 08:37 AM

Nice work. Love the detail. However, if you were really serious about light weighting the butterfly plate, you could drill lots of holes in it. Could get a 60% saving I recon!! :P



#6 FLD

FLD

    WANNABE MY LOVER

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,717 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Near nantwich
  • Interests:Tugging my todger.

Posted 21 October 2020 - 08:46 AM

Nice work. Love the detail. However, if you were really serious about light weighting the butterfly plate, you could drill lots of holes in it. Could get a 60% saving I recon!! :P

 

LOL

 

I quite like all this weight analysis.

It would be interesting to see how sanding the surfaces / rounding edges / reducing webs etc affects the weight rather than using drillium. 



#7 oakmere

oakmere

    Scary Internerd

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,143 posts

Posted 21 October 2020 - 10:21 AM

Now sell to someone with a SC as the inlet manifold is the restriction not the throttle body.
Sorry ☹️ nice work though 👍

#8 smiley

smiley

    Thetan level 15

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,427 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 21 October 2020 - 01:55 PM

Another interesting observation was someone with a stage 2 SC reusing the plastic oem part between TB and airbox due to MOT noticing 25 bhp loss, due to that compresed part of it near the airbox.
So people using a rainpipe on their system from TB to airbox: it helps!



#9 gertje

gertje

    Super Member

  • PipPip
  • 458 posts

Posted 21 October 2020 - 05:18 PM

Who was that ?

Verstuurd vanaf mijn ONEPLUS A6003 met Tapatalk



#10 The Batman

The Batman

    Super Moderator

  • 30,267 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:FLD mum's bed

Posted 21 October 2020 - 08:30 PM

i have a couple 65mm throttle bodies on the shelf if you need one



#11 nicollow

nicollow

    ...

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,801 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Edinburgh

Posted 21 October 2020 - 09:31 PM

i have a couple 65mm throttle bodies on the shelf if you need one

 

Is there anything you dont have kicking around fella?!?!  :lol:



#12 The Batman

The Batman

    Super Moderator

  • 30,267 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:FLD mum's bed

Posted 21 October 2020 - 09:56 PM

i try to cover all angles :lol:



#13 smiley

smiley

    Thetan level 15

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,427 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 21 October 2020 - 10:04 PM

Who was that ?

 

I am not a snitch :dry:
 



#14 FLD

FLD

    WANNABE MY LOVER

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,717 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Near nantwich
  • Interests:Tugging my todger.

Posted 22 October 2020 - 07:40 AM

 

i have a couple 65mm throttle bodies on the shelf if you need one

 

Is there anything you dont have kicking around fella?!?!  :lol:

 

 

He has no dignity or shame LOL
 



#15 blackoctagon

blackoctagon

    Member

  • Pip
  • 166 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lothian

Posted 22 October 2020 - 09:48 AM

In order:

Nicollow,
Plastic butterflies would do the trick. The original MG Rover K series used a clever plastic butterfly with a tail kick on it to improve driveability at low power/RPM. It was so clever everyone threw them away for brass ones. And then wondered why their driveline kicked at certain load/RPM conditions......
Weighed almost nothing though.

If the butterfly was drilled on the underside with a flat nose drill (like an end mill) and not taken all the way through then there is more fat to trim. Or go one further and pattern it out with CNC. I'm going to stop myself there.


FLD,
As i'll imagine you already know, parts like this see no cyclic loads and no real static loads either, so a lot of the webs are more about casting process.
The issue, for me, on this part is that it is so small and getting in to thin the webs is simply awkward.
The driling is such a good one because you still retain stiffness in webs, but get rid of weight that is only there for casting reasons.

As much as I like shaving so much as a gram shaving is simply tedious.
I am thinking of investing in a desktop milling machine for these kinds of things and also making small aluminium components. That way I can leave it running and do something else.
I do have access to a factory full of mills, and my dad has one as well, but these things often come to me at 9pm on a sunday night.


Oakmere,
Yes, i'll put it up for sale, or even direct swop for a 65mm.


Batman,
I believe you are a business and not just 'a bloke', but if you want to swap a 65mm for this 68mm then i'd take that deal.

#16 FLD

FLD

    WANNABE MY LOVER

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,717 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Near nantwich
  • Interests:Tugging my todger.

Posted 22 October 2020 - 01:13 PM

FLD,
As i'll imagine you already know, parts like this see no cyclic loads and no real static loads either, so a lot of the webs are more about casting process.
The issue, for me, on this part is that it is so small and getting in to thin the webs is simply awkward.
The driling is such a good one because you still retain stiffness in webs, but get rid of weight that is only there for casting reasons.

 
I'd never considered the casting process but that makes complete sense. 
I have images in my head of one of those nice 5 axis desktop CNC mills :wub:
Bastard expensive but look fantastic.  Not sure how rigid they'd be if you get ambitious.
https://pocketnc.com...ts/pocket-nc-v2

#17 techieboy

techieboy

    Supercharger of Doom

  • 22,914 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bedford

Posted 22 October 2020 - 02:25 PM

Bastard expensive but look fantastic.
https://pocketnc.com...ts/pocket-nc-v2

 

 

Filled with much want.



#18 oakmere

oakmere

    Scary Internerd

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,143 posts

Posted 23 October 2020 - 09:48 AM

On an N/A below 170bhp I would stick with the 58mm TB. Carry out the mods you did on the 68mm to the 58mm for better throttle response.
I ported my 58mm to the point that it would occasionally throw a code as the ECU was seeing to much flow.
65mm and 68mm require OBD Tuner to work.

Edited by oakmere, 23 October 2020 - 09:49 AM.


#19 blackoctagon

blackoctagon

    Member

  • Pip
  • 166 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lothian

Posted 23 October 2020 - 10:33 PM

I appreciate you writing all of that for me.
These things have already been done, and I can re-write code to the GMPT15, so i'm already past that part.

58mstd vs 58mm mod
f46dda1357134089.jpg


Your code throwing is most likley just a plausability error between the expected vacuum (or lack thereof) from the MAP and engine speed in the VE table of the ecu map.
Did the car actually stutter or just feel like it wouldnt make more power ever with more throttle?

#20 Arno

Arno

    Need to get Out More

  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,233 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 25 October 2020 - 09:42 AM

In order:

Nicollow,
Plastic butterflies would do the trick. The original MG Rover K series used a clever plastic butterfly with a tail kick on it to improve driveability at low power/RPM. It was so clever everyone threw them away for brass ones. And then wondered why their driveline kicked at certain load/RPM conditions......
Weighed almost nothing though.

 

Most people took them off (including MG/Rover with the EU3 version of the engine), not because they did not bring the performance.. The problem was that the plastic of the TB housing in the hot engine bay would start to deform slightly over time and cause the butterfly to start sticking/binding.. Very annoying...

 

The 'correct' replacement on the later engines was a 48mm alu TB (same diameter as the plastic ones, no performance difference), but with a specifically built-up/shimmed  throttle plate to mimic the plastic one as far as behaviour went. This worked fine when replacing the plastic one.

 

Driveability annoyances on low-load was more with later 52mm alu TB's that did not have this thicker plate making the initial transition harsher, especially when used on the standard ECU's that did not expect this quicker transient.

 

Bye, Arno.


Edited by Arno, 25 October 2020 - 09:43 AM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users