61 replies to this topic

[Spiderman]

You know, with my large intercooler and additional lower scoop I keep the boost too ...

(but it is not quite the same boost : 450 N.m)

Hello Chris,

By driving (hard) on roads, i never had any big boost decrease compared to what happens on track !
And as your Speedster never saw any track in its life, you really don't need a chargecooler for sure .
And the Stage 3 kit of Regelin, as almost all german stages, was mainly created for people driving fast on the autobahns contrary to british tuners more track oriented.

And regarding the weight of the CC, it makes me loose a few centh, maybe tenth of a second over a lap but keeping the boost, it's at least 5 1/10th of a second per kilometer. So for my usage, the charge cooler was really needed !

And i will see the impact of a more aggressive map on the oil temp next year . Will keep you informed !

Spiderman
charge cooler addict

[Thorney]

Spidy's made a valid point, German tuners (having German autobahns with unlimited speed limits) do spend more time looking at prolonged high engine revs circumstances and for this kind of work an oil cooler would likely be more advantageous than a charge cooler as airflow (assuming you're going over 120mph) is not exactly an issue. However for track work where the engine is working harder in some respects (albeit differently) a CC has really proven itself in terms of performance. We're looking into an oil cooler for the race VXT soon to see what benefits it has but any extra weight at this time is bad, we're competing against 700kg's Audi engined S1's as it is

[garyk220]

My car is still running fine with the BMC CDA filter fitted. I've done 2-3000 miles this summer including 3 or 4 track days, in wet and dry conditions and no reports of AMM failure so far Quite a few Astras have over 300bhp with the Z20LEH turbo and bigger injectors. My next engine mod - not decided whether to get the 330lbft map or only go for the 300lbft one

[chris]

Spidy's made a valid point, German tuners (having German autobahns with unlimited speed limits) do spend more time looking at prolonged high engine revs circumstances and for this kind of work an oil cooler would likely be more advantageous than a charge cooler as airflow (assuming you're going over 120mph) is not exactly an issue. However for track work where the engine is working harder in some respects (albeit differently) a CC has really proven itself in terms of performance. We're looking into an oil cooler for the race VXT soon to see what benefits it has but any extra weight at this time is bad, we're competing against 700kg's Audi engined S1's as it is

But even Lotus seems reluctant to develop such CC solution for its last compressed track's cars, like Exige S with its compressor and Intercooler ...

Why, if CC is THE SOLUTION for the track, LOTUS does not adopt it and keep Intercooler solution ?

Edited by chris, 13 November 2006 - 12:49 PM.

[Thorney]

One word.....cost. I didn't say the oil cooler was a bad idea, why the reluctance to accept a charge cooler is a good idea also? Gary, I've seen quite a few people *say* they have 300bhp from an LEH equipped LET but I've seen none thus far. They seem to run out at about 285bhp.

[chris]

One word.....cost.

I didn't say the oil cooler was a bad idea, why the reluctance to accept a charge cooler is a good idea also?

Gary, I've seen quite a few people *say* they have 300bhp from an LEH equipped LET but I've seen none thus far. They seem to run out at about 285bhp.

IMO, I do not know that price is major pb for LOTUS Clients.
(Charge cooler supplied and fitted system is sold about 1500 £, as tuning parts)
Installed as OEM by LOTUS I think this price could be divide by 2, ie about 750 £.
Comparing to the price of LOTUS cars and its associated options, I think it is not a significant cost regarding the supposed improvement of the car capacity. LOTUS car is not a LOGAN, major commercial arguments are perfomance and brand image not low price ...

My only reluctance regarding Charge Cooler concerns induced weight, which seems to me too important, mostly with the purpose of the track use of the car ...

Regarding power, I agree with you Thorney.
Before I install my VX perfomance phase 3 upgrade, I own EDS phase 3 (REGAL is the UK distributor of EDS) given for 302 PS (and this power was get without larger fuel injectors)
In fact this phase 3 gave lower power than VX performance phase 3 (285 PS) ...

So, at present, I am only thrust figures given by my Scale and my Getch ...

Edited by chris, 13 November 2006 - 03:38 PM.

[Spiderman]

But even Lotus seems reluctant to develop such CC solution for its last compressed track's cars, like Exige S with its compressor and Intercooler ...

Why, if CC is THE SOLUTION for the track, LOTUS does not adopt it and keep Intercooler solution ?

I've been on track with quite a lot of Exiges S and 240R (and drove both), and also Bemani tuned Exiges and clearly, the Bemani job is much more efficient regarding final power output and also efficiency for long runs. I know people who bought 70k€ (around 47k£) Exige Cup 240 and after two laps on a small track but hot day, the engine run in safety mode, limitating the revs to 4000 rpm. They were so pissed off that they decided to sell the car after it happened for the third time this summer.
The compressor of the Exige S of a good friend also blew up after less than 1500 miles from new...

It seems that Bemani also has some reliability problems but less important than Lotus ones.

And in the Lotus Cup Europe, the "Lotus Compressor" Exiges were trashed by the Bemani prepared cars... And it seems that the Lotus Circuit car (a one off) crashed badly at Spa a week ago when one of the the Lotus drivers wanted to follow an highly tuned Bemani Exige (around 280-290 bhp), owned by the winner of the Lotus Cup Europe 2006...

So the Lotus choice is clearly not the best one and was certainly dicted by some financial considerations as Thorney already said but also technical .

We also weighted quite a lot of Lotus and VXs and without fuel, all Exige S were at 900 kg where my VXT was weighted at 880 (before the fitting of the CC and harnesses and bar : will weight it again soon but should be close to the Exige S i think ).

And with my low cost and low power VXT, i easily trash 240Rs in the straights and also in the curves thanks to the good suspensions and tires .

The 240R is not a bad car (when the engine works) but that's a lot of money for a car you still need to upgrade if you want to track it fast (especially suspensions and brakes).

Spiderman
VXT addict

Edited by Spiderman, 13 November 2006 - 03:39 PM.

[chris]

But even Lotus seems reluctant to develop such CC solution for its last compressed track's cars, like Exige S with its compressor and Intercooler ...

Why, if CC is THE SOLUTION for the track, LOTUS does not adopt it and keep Intercooler solution ?

I've been on track with quite a lot of Exiges S and 240R (and drove both), and also Bemani tuned Exiges and clearly, the Bemani job is much more efficient regarding final power output and also efficiency for long runs. I know people who bought 70k€ (around 47k£) Exige Cup 240 and after two laps on a small track but hot day, the engine run in safety mode, limitating the revs to 4000 rpm. They were so pissed off that they decided to sell the car after it happened for the third time this summer.
The compressor of the Exige S of a good friend also blew up after less than 1500 miles from new...

It seems that Bemani also has some reliability problems but less important than Lotus ones.

And in the Lotus Cup Europe, the "Lotus Compressor" Exiges were trashed by the Bemani prepared cars... And it seems that the Lotus Circuit car (a one off) crashed badly at Spa a week ago when one of the the Lotus drivers wanted to follow an highly tuned Bemani Exige (around 280-290 bhp), owned by the winner of the Lotus Cup Europe 2006...

So the Lotus choice is clearly not the best one and was certainly dicted by some financial considerations as Thorney already said but also technical .

We also weighted quite a lot of Lotus and VXs and without fuel, all Exige S were at 900 kg where my VXT was weighted at 880 (before the fitting of the CC and harnesses and bar : will weight it again soon but should be close to the Exige S i think ).

And with my low cost and low power VXT, i easily trash 240Rs in the straights and also in the curves thanks to the good suspensions and tires .

The 240R is not a bad car (when the engine works) but that's a lot of money for a car you still need to upgrade if you want to track it fast (especially suspensions and brakes).

Spiderman
VXT addict

On the other side it is difficult to compare VXT Z20LET engine, which is a specific turbocharged engine designed, to the high revolution Toyota engine which was not originally designed to be compressed.

But ,said that LOTUS enginering is bad, I think it is little bit exagerate ...



880 kg : I suppose for comparison reasons it was the weight of your car without fuel, like other Lotus ?
That's mean your car weight is about 910 kg with full tank, and should be about at 925 kg with CC ...

It is 15 kg lower than weight of stock VXT, I am a little bit disappointed for an aficionado of track (like you are) it is not great improvement on fundamental parameter of track car !

Edited by chris, 13 November 2006 - 03:57 PM.

[Spiderman]

On the other side it is difficult to compare VXT Z20LET engine, which is a specific turbocharged engine designed, to the high revolution Toyota engine which was not originally designed to be compressed.

I totally agree with you : that's what made me buy a VXT 2 and a half years ago .

But ,said that LOTUS enginering is bad, I think it is little bit exagerate ...

You know, Lotus sold quite a lot of 111R and Exige without twin oil coolers at the front (was an option included in the Sport pack of the Exige) and this despite the track orientation of a "normal" Exige. The result ? The only 2 fast guys with VVTI engines (one with a 111R, the other one with an Exige) without oil coolers blew up their engines this year. So is it very serious from Lotus to sell such cars without this needed equipment ?

880 kg : I suppose for comparison reasons it was the weight of your car without fuel, like other Lotus ?
That's mean your car weight is about 910 kg with full tank, and should be about at 925 kg with CC ...

Around 906 kg with the full tank right. So around 920 kg with the CC.

It is 15 kg lower than weight of stock VXT, I am a little bit disappointed for an aficionado of track (like you are) it is not great improvement on fundamental parameter of track car !

As my main goal is to go fast on a full lap without spending to much $$$, and to be able to drive it in town or roads, my car is the reflect of this.
If i could be fast without a CC, of course i wouldn't have fit one !
And regarding the weight, i still plan to remove some weight in the futur (carbon bootlid, undertray and seats) but add some too with the TMS carbon rear wing too (because on track, you usually gain more time by being fast in the curves than in the straights !). However, as i'm a lightweight guy, my car is still around 950 kg with me inside when i'm chasing the fast laps without too much fuel in the tank so not too bad for a CC car .

And despite the (very) good brake discs i have on the car, i plane to put the TMS 4 pots kit this winter as the feeling and predictability is so much improved by this modification (love it on CSL_freak's car ). But it shouldn't add any weight as the calipers are lighter than the original AP ones .

So, like you, i'm improving little by little my VXT to reach my goal ! And i think that in our own and different direction, we're not too bad until now .

Spiderman
heavy car addict

[Thorney]

You can't just divide the aftermarket cost by 2 to get a mnuafacture cost, its a lot more complicated than that. When Vauxhall adopted the Milltek as the official upgrade exhaust they asked Lotus to quote in providing one (65 units only remember) and the cost was £50K! THe level of liability/design/marketing and implementation (not least regulatory approval and testing) that manufacturers have to go through is nothing short of startling so in effect it is easier for them to ask an aftermarket specialist to provide a solution and simply piggy back it. If Lotus were to tune the VXT I'd guess the costs of a stage 4 would be nearer £10k. All we do know (and this applies to all the tuners) is that 270bhp is about as far as you can take an LEH (in a VX chassis) before you need to change the manifold (turbo). Larger injectors and VXR units included. Highest we've seen (on a dyno, not a Gtech) is 277bhp. With a different turbo over 320bhp is relatively easy but you'll need to change internals to cope.

[chris]

You know, Lotus sold quite a lot of 111R and Exige without twin oil coolers at the front (was an option included in the Sport pack of the Exige) and this despite the track orientation of a "normal" Exige. The result ? The only 2 fast guys with VVTI engines (one with a 111R, the other one with an Exige) without oil coolers blew up their engines this year. So is it very serious from Lotus to sell such cars without this needed equipment

All these cars have not the same thermal load than VXT upgraded to 285 Ps and 450 N.m torque !
Install additional oil cooler give you insurance regarding your oil temp and for your engine reliability.
Moreover, adding of 0,75 l is a good for oil load longevity ...

As my main goal is to go fast on a full lap without spending to much $$$, and to be able to drive it in town or roads, my car is the reflect of this.
If i could be fast without a CC, of course i wouldn't have fit one !
And regarding the weight, i still plan to remove some weight in the futur (carbon bootlid, undertray and seats) but add some too with the TMS carbon rear wing too (because on track, you usually gain more time by being fast in the curves than in the straights !). However, as i'm a lightweight guy, my car is still around 950 kg with me inside when i'm chasing the fast laps without too much fuel in the tank so not too bad for a CC car .

And despite the (very) good brake discs i have on the car, i plane to put the TMS 4 pots kit this winter as the feeling and predictability is so much improved by this modification (love it on CSL_freak's car ). But it shouldn't add any weight as the calipers are lighter than the original AP ones .

So, like you, i'm improving little by little my VXT to reach my goal ! And i think that in our own and different direction, we're not too bad until now .

Speed in turning is directly proportional to the weight of your car !
Have look to Elises S1 !

From my side, I consider that my brake with Pagid RS14 (and light weight) are enough efficient ...

[Spiderman]

Speed in turning is directly proportional to the weight of your car !
Have look to Elises S1 !

You know Chris, i'm chasing Lotus Elises 111S, 340R and Exiges track prepared for years (and owned a yellow 111S 4 years ago !) and i've driven dozens of Elises S1 so i can assure you that it's a bit more complicated than this !
Of course if my VXT was 10% lighter i would be faster everywhere for sure (straight lines, corners, etc.).
But compared to Elises S1, who are between 150 and 180 kg lighter than my car, i'm of course slower in slow corners but in fast curves, only Exiges S1 are faster thank to their rear wing and front spoiler.
Because with the VXT and its 16 and 17" wheels and tires and slightly larger car, i'm as fast as lighter cars in fast turns, despite the lack of rear wing !
And the torque of the VXT is very helpfull to manage corners in 3rd gear where the Elises are exactly between their 2nd and 3rd gear. Of course if the track has got some hills or long straights, the VXT takes the lead a bit more .

From my side, I consider that my brake with Pagid RS14 (and light weight) are enough efficient ...

For a road use, i totally agree with you !

Spiderman
Lotus' hunter

[chris]

You can't just divide the aftermarket cost by 2 to get a mnuafacture cost, its a lot more complicated than that. When Vauxhall adopted the Milltek as the official upgrade exhaust they asked Lotus to quote in providing one (65 units only remember) and the cost was £50K! THe level of liability/design/marketing and implementation (not least regulatory approval and testing) that manufacturers have to go through is nothing short of startling so in effect it is easier for them to ask an aftermarket specialist to provide a solution and simply piggy back it. If Lotus were to tune the VXT I'd guess the costs of a stage 4 would be nearer £10k.

All we do know (and this applies to all the tuners) is that 270bhp is about as far as you can take an LEH (in a VX chassis) before you need to change the manifold (turbo). Larger injectors and VXR units included.

Highest we've seen (on a dyno, not a Gtech) is 277bhp. With a different turbo over 320bhp is relatively easy but you'll need to change internals to cope.

I do not speak of aftermarket solution developped in a great hurry, in order to improve existing car, but a design and reliable solution for a new car type ...
I can't imagine that Exige S is a do-it-yourself, bungled by Lotus !!!
Charge Cooler is not a newest technological solution, it was already proposed by Courteney 2 years ago for VXt and a long time ago for other car type !




For your information, I never said that Gtech give me the exact power of my car (if exact power ther is), for me, it is only a mean of comparison between stage and improvement perfomed on my car with the same calculation hypothesis.
What I can said, is that Vx performance stage 3 is more effective than EDS phase 3 which is given for 17 PS more

And from your side have you some Gtech curves or equivalent of runs of your upgraded cars ?

[Thorney]

You can't just divide the aftermarket cost by 2 to get a mnuafacture cost, its a lot more complicated than that. When Vauxhall adopted the Milltek as the official upgrade exhaust they asked Lotus to quote in providing one (65 units only remember) and the cost was £50K! THe level of liability/design/marketing and implementation (not least regulatory approval and testing) that manufacturers have to go through is nothing short of startling so in effect it is easier for them to ask an aftermarket specialist to provide a solution and simply piggy back it. If Lotus were to tune the VXT I'd guess the costs of a stage 4 would be nearer £10k.

All we do know (and this applies to all the tuners) is that 270bhp is about as far as you can take an LEH (in a VX chassis) before you need to change the manifold (turbo). Larger injectors and VXR units included.

Highest we've seen (on a dyno, not a Gtech) is 277bhp. With a different turbo over 320bhp is relatively easy but you'll need to change internals to cope.

I do not speak of aftermarket solution developped in a great hurry, in order to improve existing car, but a design and reliable solution for a new car type ...
I can't imagine that Exige S is a do-it-yourself, bungled by Lotus !!!
Charge Cooler is not a newest technological solution, it was already proposed by Courteney 2 years ago for VXt and a long time ago for other car type !




For your information, I never said that Gtech give me the exact power of my car (if exact power ther is), for me, it is only a mean of comparison between stage and improvement perfomed on my car with the same calculation hypothesis.
What I can said, is that Vx performance stage 3 is more effective than EDS phase 3 which is given for 17 PS more

And from your side have you some Gtech curves or equivalent of runs of your upgraded cars ?

Chris, no one is being argumentative (although it was TMS (thru AmD) that developed the first charge cooler for the VXT.

Lets just say the next few months will have some interesting developments.

[speedster]

And from your side have you some Gtech curves or equivalent of runs of your upgraded cars ?

OK folks, lets see those graphs!

How much iron are you lugging about in a VXT? Is it the turbo, or the block, or both?

[Thorney]

I've never used a Gtech, can't see the point. /pats £150k dyno cell

[chris]

Is necessary to pay a such amount to get attractive dyno plots ? Your dyno plot give only power of your upgraded engine, not other indication like adequation engine & motor function of your car ... Gtech could give you acceleration/speed/distance curves of your car and even lateral acceleration in turnings That is the reason why it should be interesting to compare such curves getting with your phase 3 upgrade(TMS/Courtenay/etc) to german school phase 3 upgrades. Are you afraid of results ?

[Thorney]

Quite happy to have a go with a Gtech, never seen one before. However I tend to think that measurments of things like cornering G and acceleration are best measured by racing against other on a circuit in a race against the clock Chris, you might be interested in a little event we're hoping to put on......fancy helping to organise a Euro Speedster meeting at Hockenheim at the same time as the German Tuner Grand Prix? I've been speaking with a few of our fellow Speedster owners and we agreed a big meet is way overdue and seeing as TMS will be at the Tuner Grand Prix in Hockeneheim and KW suspesnion (sponsors of the GP) are happy to help sort us club parking for us all it might be a good idea to all meet up? Plan is to run a Speedster only track day just before the event so we can have a play. Interested.

[chris]

For your information Mr Thorney :

http://www.gtechpro.com/

It is really a good value instrument (not very expensive) and the results you can transfer to the computer are amazing.
As the car really runs, during data recording, you can see phenomena which could be "invisible" on dyno bench (like dynamic Ram-air system effects)


I propose to you some scientific trial runs measurement of your phase 3 upgraded car, and you answer by an invitation to stock-car race !!!
In these kind of events, you do not measure only car capacity, but also pilot agressiveness and ability ...




From my side, I am not a pilot (without gregarius instinct), I am only a "technician" who is curious to know what is the best results in terms of car performance (not only on a dyno plot) that it is possible to get with a sharp VXT.

[speedster]

Chris, you might be interested in a little event we're hoping to put on......fancy helping to organise a Euro Speedster meeting at Hockenheim at the same time as the German Tuner Grand Prix?

I've been speaking with a few of our fellow Speedster owners and we agreed a big meet is way overdue and seeing as TMS will be at the Tuner Grand Prix in Hockeneheim and KW suspesnion (sponsors of the GP) are happy to help sort us club parking for us all it might be a good idea to all meet up?

Plan is to run a Speedster only track day just before the event so we can have a play. Interested.

I like the sound of that!