37 replies to this topic

[Lps]

i think i may have found an alternative chargecooler that is substantially cheaper and ive seen working on, how can i put it..... a bloody top specced car that is fairly well known in the tuning world (albeit by Jap lovers)

i just need to have a chance to have a measure up to see it its possible to get it in situ (it retains the IC)

if i said it had a 4"X6" core size and 290mm total length, rated up to 300 HP, 390 CFM (they also do larger ones i.e 325hp & 350hp rated for not much more & also MUCH larger ones nfg for us lot) would you be interested then Tim?

i reckon it'd be possible to put together a kit for around £600ish rather than £1600....

cooler = £225 for the 300hp rated one. (325hp 4"x8" & 350mm long = £265.00 - 350hp 4"x10" & 395mm long = £325.00)
pre rad = £150??
alloy header tank = £60ish
pump = £80ish
fan = £50ish
hoses etc = £50ish (probably less)

[Thorney]

We've been testing different IC's for some time, as yet no real gains....doen't mean we stop trying though. Got another one to go on my race car (we have to fix it first now )

[Lps]

i know the pipe runs would be too immense to be feasible, but id love to see what a Vx could get out of a large front mounted IC

[cyberface]

i know the pipe runs would be too immense to be feasible, but id love to see what a Vx could get out of a large front mounted IC

Monster turbo lag, I'd expect

[Lps]

you would think so wouldnt you!

but have you seen some of the front mount conversions for Scoobys??

look...



i reckon in a striaght line all that pipe work would easily run to the back end of a Vx

ok, so this is a *monster* kit designed for huge turbo's but..... as i said it would be interesting to know what you could get out of one if a front mount was used. It seems you've gotta go balls out on our cars to hit 300hp, whereas on the Astra VXR's they just use a big front mount, up the boost and away they go

[paulf-cam]

Anyone do the maths? How long would it take to pressurise a run of pipework from the engine to the front and back again - can't be that long, surely? You've got to be talking 10ths of a second?

[chris]

hey chris,

I think it was probably one of your posts that I have seen before with every thing being weighed? I dont suppose you know how much the standard full exhaust on the VXT weights by any chance?

cheers

Joe

About 21,5 kg

[The Knobs]

go on Lee, make an RS200 style one, i dare you

[speedster]

Anyone do the maths?

How long would it take to pressurise a run of pipework from the engine to the front and back again - can't be that long, surely? You've got to be talking 10ths of a second?

With decrease in horsepower somewhere between 3% to 5% for each bend and joint in the pipework you'd probably be dropping a fair amount of power.

Few other options other than increasing core size..

If there is space inside the clam around where the standard IC resides you could divide the charge and route it through two seperate IC's (a parallel IC system).

Use a water spray setup to cool the intercooler. You'd be carrying extra water weight around with you and you'd need to control the system so it only kicks in when the charge temperature is high but with a water spray you can keep the standard IC in place and ramp up the boost level and HP output.

If you know how to handle the ignition timing and fueling maps and you got injectors big enough plus your happy with the strenght of your crank, con rods and pistons there is always the fun option of introducing Nitrous Oxide into the charge.....

[paulf-cam]

With decrease in horsepower somewhere between 3% to 5% for each bend and joint in the pipework you'd probably be dropping a fair amount of power.

Really? That much, huh...

Okey, what about this:

Cut a hole in the undertray and stick a big intercooler flat underneath the car, that would get enough air and be close enough to the engine, maybe?

Use a water spray setup to cool the intercooler.

Or, even better water injection directly into the air stream after the intercooler. Works wonders on other turbo charged cars. Of course you need to refill the water every time you fill with petrol, but maybe no biggy. Cheap too; i think a decent sytem is only £200, not sure why no one has tried this on a VX yet...?

[garyk220]

Or, even better water injection directly into the air stream after the intercooler. Works wonders on other turbo charged cars. Of course you need to refill the water every time you fill with petrol, but maybe no biggy. Cheap too; i think a decent sytem is only £200, not sure why no one has tried this on a VX yet...?

Courtenay did, on Vauxhall's Sprint car. Also included a water spray for the IC. It was a decent compromise at the time, but not as good as a chargecooler system during long periods of track use. When I passengered in it at Bruntingthorpe it was clearly backing off boost due to high intake temperatures.

Would be fine for sprints and short track sessions I reckon.

[paulf-cam]

Or, even better water injection directly into the air stream after the intercooler. Works wonders on other turbo charged cars. Of course you need to refill the water every time you fill with petrol, but maybe no biggy. Cheap too; i think a decent sytem is only £200, not sure why no one has tried this on a VX yet...?

Courtenay did, on Vauxhall's Sprint car. Also included a water spray for the IC. It was a decent compromise at the time, but not as good as a chargecooler system during long periods of track use. When I passengered in it at Bruntingthorpe it was clearly backing off boost due to high intake temperatures.

Would be fine for sprints and short track sessions I reckon.

The only problem for track work is that you'll probably run out of water pretty quick. If they were getting high intake temps when they had water left, it can't have been set up correctly - maybe needed more pressure or lower boost theshold (to trigger WI earlier).

For road use i would expect water injection after a stock intercooler to do better than a charge cooler while you have water in the system.

Edited by paulf-cam, 28 March 2007 - 02:06 PM.

[Winstar]

Why just stick to water, if your running extra boost then you can inject the extra fuel needed post compression. The energy needed to vapourise the fuel is taken from the gas reducing the temp, IIRC the Lotus Esprit V8 used this, but you can't do it on production engines anymore due to emissions regs. Putting the IC in the under tray would work but would prob need ducting to the rear of the car to get good flow and cleaning regually

[cyberface]

FMIC would be cool but I can't see where you can put it on the VX. In series with the radiator would probably compromise the radiator capacity since it'd be taking hot air from the intercooler rather than cold air. And there's not a lot of other places in the front clam to mount a large FMIC, certainly not vertically. Mounting at an angle Noble-style would require more analysis of the aerodynamics at the front to make sure you don't have a car that takes off at speed I like the water injection idea though. I'd be happy filling up with water at the same time as petrol... Is there any value in going the ultimate charge-cooler route - using a compressor and refrigerant i.e. basically an aircon setup? That'd cool the intake charge down somewhat, though I presume that sizing makes it impossible without needing an enormous aircon compressor or someone else would have done it already...

[s1oww]

I ran IC waterspray on my vxt for 2 years and with a quick push of a button the inlet temp dropped about 3-4 degrees, sometimes more on a cold evening. I also had it hooked up to a boost switch so it came on at higher boost levels. It was easy to rig up and cost next to nothing to do. The tank held a few litres and would last ages, as i would only turn the system on when it needed it, i.e hard driving or hot days. I was in the process of moving fitting a second vxt intercooler to my car when i had to sell it. I would love to have known the results. I've never been a big fan of charge coolers, they are also bloody expensive too. I've had charge coolers and big intercoolers on my cars over the years. There is a limit when an intercooler will loose you power and drivabilty.

[paulf-cam]

I ran IC waterspray on my vxt for 2 years and with a quick push of a button the inlet temp dropped about 3-4 degrees, sometimes more on a cold evening. I also had it hooked up to a boost switch so it came on at higher boost levels. It was easy to rig up and cost next to nothing to do. The tank held a few litres and would last ages, as i would only turn the system on when it needed it, i.e hard driving or hot days.

I was in the process of moving fitting a second vxt intercooler to my car when i had to sell it. I would love to have known the results.

I've never been a big fan of charge coolers, they are also bloody expensive too. I've had charge coolers and big intercoolers on my cars over the years. There is a limit when an intercooler will loose you power and drivabilty.

On other applications, water injection into the intake tract has dropped intake temperatures to ambient or below, i'm guessing its much more effective than IC waterspray...

Cheers, Paul.

[Spiderman]

We've fitted them to French owners cars who all confirmed that they lost power on hot track days without the CC but once fitted they were fine (at least one is a member here, I'm sure if he spots this he'll make a post).

I think you were talking about me John !

So, my april 2003 VXT was converted to an AMD Stage 2 in january 2005 which was a very big improvement over the standard car, especially on the roads.
However, during trackdays (i'm doing arnound 12 trackdays a year since years), after a few laps the power was significantly dropping. The hotter the weather was, the fastest it happened.
I fitted a boost gauge around a year ago and clearly saw the phenomenon with the max boost quickly decreasing after between 2 to 5 laps (depending the outside temp).
Some friends tracking their standard VXT observed the same phenomenon.

In July 2006 i made the trip to MK to get the CC fitted by TMS team ! And i was not dissapointed by the result ! In August, even after 10 fast laps on the Le Mans racetrack, no loss of boost pressure at all !
Since then, everything ran faultless : touch wood !!

So to date i can confirm that the TMS CC is VERY efficient. I've not tried yet a VXT with a big german intercooler on track but that should be done soon as one of my friend has one fitted as we speak. He plan to fit a boost gauge soon too so that it will be easier to see what's happening or not !

Will keep you informed about the results !

Sporting regards from Paris,

Spiderman
thinking about a stage 4 at the end of the year

[s1oww]

[/quote] On other applications, water injection into the intake tract has dropped intake temperatures to ambient or below, i'm guessing its much more effective than IC waterspray... Cheers, Paul. [/quote] Yeah water injection is more effective, I had it on my 350bhp cav turbo back in the day, but i didnt have a inlet temp gauge to measure the difference. Its a more expensive to fit and a little bit more hassel, i ran an earl kit, but my IC spray was all home made and worked perfectly. My vxt wasnt running big enough power to warrant water injection. My only issue i had with water injection was, is it running. My cav was running 1.8bar of boost so the water injection was very important to keep everything cool (i had and intercooler and charge cooler on this car). Other than the water level going down the only way i knew it was working when the car was at full boost was that i could hear the pump buzzing in the glove box, if it was out of water the buzz would get louder. The kit had no manual over ride, i should have really fitted one myself With the IC spray i could always purge it manually The IC spray is a simple way of dropping the temp a bit. I've fitted it to most turbo cars i've owned I would say it is noway to run higher boost, just helping your car run better at the present safe boost level.