31 replies to this topic

[Turbo Head]

Watching England defeat France in the World Cup, made me think, what defines English? What is England to you and what makes you proud to be English? The Scots, Welsh and Irish have a very strong sense of national identity. I think largely due to Wars and the British Empire, English identity somehow got lost and intermingled with a sense of being British because we all had to come together to fight common foe. Since devolution, the English seem to want to rediscover their own identity. We seldom see Union flags at large sporting events, it’s always and rightly so, the flag of St George. Ten years ago the number of Union flags at England events outweighed the flags of St George. For me it’s our history, culture, food, and spirit. Richard 1st, Henry V, Elizabeth 1st, Shakespeare, William Blake (Jerusalem, And did those feet in ancient times walk up on England’s…) Elgar. Roast Beef and Yorkshire pudding, Cheddar, Double Gloucester, Lancashire Cheeses, Cumberland, Lincolnshire Sausages, English Mustard. Village Pubs, village cricket. More than anything, it’s the spirit that is displayed by, Neil Back, Richard Hill, Martin Johnson, Jonny Wilkinson & Co, when they pull on the jersey. We should be proud to be English, friendly towards our neighbours in Scotland, Wales, Ireland, and Europe, but celebrate our differences. The next time you check into a hotel and you fill out the form at reception and where it says nationality, write ENGLISH. cheers With real ale in a village pub

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[streetboy]

We should be proud to be English...

You didn't watch the football then?

[Turbo Head]

No meaningless friendly, but our Norwegian manger likes to play two teams for friendly matches, thus cheating the good English paying public of a proper game!

[Jase_MK]

I can recommend a good book by Jeremy Paxman called "The English". Discusses exactly this topic, what does it mean to be English? There are many things to be proud of but also some things to be ashamed of. Personally, I believe I happen to live on a particular bit of the earth which has the name England, just like I hapen to live in a particular area marked out by some imaginary lines as Buckinghamshire. I can't say I feel like I have any more connection with former 'Englishmen' before me than I have with anyone else on the planet. They just happened to hang around in the same area as me. IMO the only thing that seperates me from a Frenchman, German or Italian is the local law, politics, economics and language. I see where you're coming from though TH Right, I'm off now before I get

[Turbo Head]

I can recommend a good book by Jeremy Paxman called "The English". Discusses exactly this topic, what does it mean to be English?

Thanks for that Jase, just ordered it from Amazon. cheers

[ic33]

Born in England, spent almost my whole life in Scotland, English father, Scottish mother...but when it comes to those hotel forms I write British...that's what it says on my passport! I'm also not one of those Scots who support any team that are playing against England - I've been cheering the English rugby team all the way to the final and would take great delight in seeing them beat the Aussies on their own patch. Yes, English people can be total tw*ts at times, but every nation has a few of them - doesn't justify the vehement racism expressed by some Scots.

[streetboy]

Well I was born in Belfast so I'm not English...and proud of it.

[caleebra]

I see where you are coming from Jase, probably a good ethos but one I would struggle to adopt.

I'm also not one of those Scots who support any team that are playing against England - I've been cheering the English rugby team all the way to the final and would take great delight in seeing them beat the Aussies on their own patch. Yes, English people can be total tw*ts at times, but every nation has a few of them - doesn't justify the vehement racism expressed by some Scots.

I personally will support any team that play England, but it's not out of any "vehement racism." It's due in the main to the english media, and the mockery some entities make of their names... "the BRITISH Broadcasting Coporation," "BRITISH Sky Broadcasting" etc. There have been countless examples of this over the years, such as David Beckham's foot appearing as the main story for days on the NATIONAL news, but Saturday summed it up perfectly for me - I had just finished celebrating one of our nation's finest victories and switched over to see how Wales were getting on. At the end of the game, we were presented with a 1 minute summary of the Scotland game, a 20 second discussion of the result and that was it... "We'll be back tomorrow when England..." It happens all the time, Sky I think are the worst offenders.

Another thing that has annoyed me recently - Prince Harry jumping about, decked head to foot in England attire whilst attending games at the Rugby world cup, inlcuding the one against the Welsh. Should someone perhaps remind him that his father has the title "Prince of Wales" and he is part of the monarchy of the supposedly United Kingdom. It's not only the people of England that pay for your holidays abroad Harry...

It's things like this that encourage a nation of kilted Brazillians, nothing to do with racism really. Politics encourages a general disdain towards Westminster, but not the people of England. History encourages a pride in our nationality, again, not a racist hatred for the English!

[Purebob]

Its an odd thing. The English are roundly disliked and resented around the world, typically by nations who England discovered, "civilised" by force or defeated in battle over the past thousand years who have not have the opportunity to defeat us in battle in return. This IMO is why the US have no issue with us while the Australians and celtic nations hate us so much. What 'Englishness' is today I have no idea. Values have changed and been eroded in the past several generations IMO. Englisness is as much football hooganism and lager loutishness as it is great wordsmithery and heritage these days I'm afraid. All I know is when I travel abroad and I do a lot, I always look down on England as I approach to land and think 'this is MY land...I am of this earth' and feel a small twinge.

Edited by Purebob, 17 November 2003 - 02:11 PM.

[Turbo Head]

I personally will support any team that play England, but it's not out of any "vehement racism." It's due in the main to the english media, and the mockery some entities make of their names... "the BRITISH Broadcasting Coporation," "BRITISH Sky Broadcasting" etc. There have been countless examples of this over the years, such as David Beckham's foot appearing as the main story for days on the NATIONAL news, but Saturday summed it up perfectly for me - I had just finished celebrating one of our nation's finest victories and switched over to see how Wales were getting on. At the end of the game, we were presented with a 1 minute summary of the Scotland game, a 20 second discussion of the result and that was it... "We'll be back tomorrow when England..." It happens all the time, Sky I think are the worst offenders.

Another thing that has annoyed me recently - Prince Harry jumping about, decked head to foot in England attire whilst attending games at the Rugby world cup, inlcuding the one against the Welsh. Should someone perhaps remind him that his father has the title "Prince of Wales" and he is part of the monarchy of the supposedly United Kingdom. It's not only the people of England that pay for your holidays abroad Harry...

It's things like this that encourage a nation of kilted Brazillians, nothing to do with racism really. Politics encourages a general disdain towards Westminster, but not the people of England. History encourages a pride in our nationality, again, not a racist hatred for the English!

I think most English people would, understand what your'e point of view, unfortunately the media is in the hands of a small minority. The majority of English don't want to hear about Beckham's foot either, and as for politicans! Mind you there are probably more Scots in the cabinet than English?

[Teatowel]

One thing I find amusing is that the "Three Lions" originates from France

[BradW]

I can recommend a good book by Jeremy Paxman called "The English". Discusses exactly this topic, what does it mean to be English? There are many things to be proud of but also some things to be ashamed of.

Personally, I believe I happen to live on a particular bit of the earth which has the name England, just like I hapen to live in a particular area marked out by some imaginary lines as Buckinghamshire. I can't say I feel like I have any more connection with former 'Englishmen' before me than I have with anyone else on the planet. They just happened to hang around in the same area as me.

IMO the only thing that seperates me from a Frenchman, German or Italian is the local law, politics, economics and language.

I see where you're coming from though TH

Right, I'm off now before I get

Isn't it the fact that you live in the social and economic conditions of England that have shaped your character and your life...I'm sure if you were to completely disect everything you would find this to be true.
We are shaped by all our experiences...
Therefore, perhaps to be English means to be predominantly shaped by the culture and environment of this piece of land over any other.
Similarly, you may be proud of being a Smith (as in the name). To be a Smith (or a Jones for the Welsh) could perhaps mean to be predominantly shaped by the Smith culture and environment (ie. the Environment provided by the Smiths...your parents).

Sorry...going home to have a nice long drink now...

[BradW]

....and another thing...why do we in England have bigger celebrations for St Patricks Day than for St George?... ...perhaps its traditionally more fun and at the end of the day the more pleasure we can have on this Earth the better... I've done it again... cheers

[Purebob]

There will be plenty of English celebrations in our house if we lift the Webb Ellis trophy on Saturday ! This team represent England well. Posh folks and common folks, white folks and black folks, big folks and little folks, al kinds of backgrounds combining their various skills and laying their bodies and spirits on the line for the glory of the shirt they wear. Truly the warrior breed, in darker times Martin Johnson may have been a great general, Cohen may have been a famed gladiator, Leonard a bareknuckle fighter all of them crafty, noble, dedicated and fearsome. They have improved an fought harder than any sporting team in history over the past six years through awful times (76-0 against Australia in '98) and good times (one defeat in the past 2 years ) all leading to this ultimate challenge. The World Cup. Their opponents are also a great warrior nation, proven in combat these many years but stinging still at the 4 consecutive defeats England have inflicted upon them in latter years. They want that cup BAD. They want England's heart BAD. This isn't football, this isn't Cricket this is WAR, no less. No cheating will win. No cynicism will take the honours - the most skilled team with the most heart will win the day. I hope, dare to believe that England will lift the cup on Saturday. For me, and other rugby nuts it will mean more than '66 ever did. Martin and the team - do us proud, you noble boys. Do us proud.

[Tony]

The majority of English don't want to hear about Beckham's foot either, ?? Who's this Beckham ? Another thing, why when England play, do we have the British national anthem, But Scotland and Wales have their own anthem? Sorry been to the pub

[caleebra]

There will be plenty of English celebrations in our house if we lift the Webb Ellis trophy on Saturday !
This team represent
England well. Posh folks and common folks, white folks and black folks, big folks and little folks, al kinds of backgrounds combining their various skills and laying their bodies and spirits on the line for the glory of the shirt they wear. Truly the warrior breed, in darker times Martin Johnson may have been a great general, Cohen may have been a famed gladiator, Leonard a bareknuckle fighter all of them crafty, noble, dedicated and fearsome.

They have improved an fought harder than any sporting team in history over the past six years through awful times (76-0 against Australia in '98) and good times (one defeat in the past 2 years ) all leading to this ultimate challenge. The World Cup. Their opponents are also a great warrior nation, proven in combat these many years but stinging still at the 4 consecutive defeats England have inflicted upon them in latter years. They want that cup BAD. They want England's heart BAD.

This isn't football, this isn't Cricket this is WAR, no less. No cheating will win. No cynicism will take the honours - the most skilled team with the most heart will win the day.

I hope, dare to believe that England will lift the cup on Saturday. For me, and other rugby nuts it will mean more than '66 ever did.

Martin and the team - do us proud, you noble boys. Do us proud.

Pah! Rugby is

[Purebob]

LOL caleebra ! Go and tell Martin johnson he's a to his face !

[caleebra]

No probs Big puff, I could take him any day... he's probably only a foot taller than me Nah, I was just jesting - growing up where I'm from it was just football, football, football (except at PE, when they made you do shite like gymnastics and hockey) so never developed a liking/understanding of rugby. The only school that played rubgy was a private school "Good show Gabriel!" But each to their own and all that! (Egg chasers )

Edited by caleebra, 19 November 2003 - 06:08 PM.

[Purebob]

well I'm definitely not posh ! I just never understood soccer. 20 blokes standing around unclogging their nostrils waiting for the 2 blokes running to kick the ball to them..... Also soccer player embarrass me as a man with that pissant rolling about stuff they do when somebody breathes on them. I freely admit Rugby union is mind bogglingly complex and occasionally looks like several fat men bent over pushing sometimes though !

[Turbo Head]

I didn't go to a posh school, but played rugby, and loved every minute. Still love rugby and football equally. Will have or three if we win against the Aussies.