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What Charge Cooler?


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#21 MAP18W

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 02:20 PM

Why is it the Pro-alloy charge cooler has a pre rad that sits underneath the engine radiator? My dad has a PACE charge cooler on his VXT which has a small pre rad in the front grille. Similarly, Thorney’s charge cooler system features a small pre rad in the front grille.

The new pro alloy cooler we now use has a much larger pre rad which is why it occupies the space underneath the main rad and the inlet air temps are far far lower and more stable than with a smaller front mounted vertical rad (just compare the surface area/size of the two pre rads and you'll understand why the large rad with better flow offers better results).

There's no flow restriction through the big pre-rad to the water rad, water temps remain unaffected. The twin fans are just to ensure that there is enough cooling ability, as they're blowing through two cores. We (with Pro Alloy) wanted to makes sure they do the best job possible, and when they do cut in they stay on for less time than a single standard fan blowing through just the OE rad, which shows how good they are.

#22 Guy182

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 02:28 PM


Anyone here had a pre-rad punctured? These cars sit pretty low, and I thrash around country lanes and the front of my car looks like it's been shotblasted :)


know how you feel.. mines appaling.. but it gets driven so its going to get stone chips.. will get it resprayed in a year or something lol

also look inside the back of the front arches too after youve had 888's on for a bit.. grr..

Edited by Guy182, 02 July 2007 - 02:28 PM.


#23 cyberface

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 02:36 PM



Anyone here had a pre-rad punctured? These cars sit pretty low, and I thrash around country lanes and the front of my car looks like it's been shotblasted :)


know how you feel.. mines appaling.. but it gets driven so its going to get stone chips.. will get it resprayed in a year or something lol

also look inside the back of the front arches too after youve had 888's on for a bit.. grr..

Didn't buy it to polish it mate :D

As long as it doesn't rust (hehe) or corrode / split, then I don't really care. As long as it still puts that massive grin on my face like the thrash I had yesterday, stone chips are the least of my worries :)

#24 Thorney

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 03:12 PM

Our issues on the race car are engine bay temperature related not intake temperature. Intake temperatures are all brilliant and thats what allows us to run such high power (remember we're running in excess of 330bhp) so intake temp control is crucial. Removing the IC and replacing it with a CC would be pointless and indeed we think would make things worse, remember for a given size and airflow an IC will outperform a CC, hence we keep both. We've addressed engine bay temps with different solutions that I won't go into here. Comparing maps and CC's from different cars is a bit meaningless too, we run a different map entirely for cars fitted with our CC. :P The install on the front is also where we differ, the VX has a horizontally mounted front rad with the front having a deflector plate designed to direct air though and up through the rad, this is the reason we mounted the front prerad so high with a thick but narrow core, it gets perfect direct airflow but doesn't interupt the airflow to the main rad at all. If you mount a prerad directly under or over the main rad you are placing it directly in the main rad airflow which has to compromise the ability of both rads to do their job. This is probably the reason why you need to use fans, fans should only be used where you need to suck air through a rad where airflow is compromised, the very design suggests this occures.

#25 Guy182

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 06:33 PM

yep an IC will outperform and IC but cars are always about compromises, you cant have a big FMIC due to the mid engine so chargecooler is the best alternative. do you agree the main disadvntage of the chargecooler is heat soak? well thats why the huge pre rad is needed to remove the heat as efficiently as possible. and im also happy that the standard IC has gone as it will reduce engine bay temperatures and also reduces some extra weight of the car as for it being pointless removing the IC.. did the above graph load on your screen? id hardly say the differences there were pointless in my opinion. same boost pressure, same map, more power and more torque, result :) '' If you mount a prerad directly under or over the main rad you are placing it directly in the main rad airflow which has to compromise the ability of both rads to do their job. This is probably the reason why you need to use fans, fans should only be used where you need to suck air through a rad where airflow is compromised, the very design suggests this occures.'' obviously havent seen one yet then or driven a car equipped with one? the fans are only used as per normal, when the coolant temp gets to 102 degrees or whatever it is rad sticks at 85 degree during normal driving. on recent trip to le mans crimson killas NA was reading higher temps than mine (discussing it over 2 way radios while driving/stuck in traffic) as i've said, i only put a switch on mine so that i could keep the airflow there WHEN STATIONARY, i.e. when coming off track and leaving the car to run while cooling down. think this is where you're getting confused. This isnt needed but its my preference as it makes the system more efficient where leaving the car there with no air flow the temps are surely going to increase? as for putting it infront of the rad, its not like blocking it off is it. the air is still forced through both rads via 'crashbox cover' cowling part. dan, as for which is the best cooler.. you're not going to get a genuine answer on here really are you. obviously thorney will say his is the best (wouldnt you if the question was asked on your businesses forum?) and obviously courtenay/MAP18W will say the pro alloy one is best as its what they sell. you pays your price and takes your choice :) the only way you could find out is to fit both kits to the exact same car in the same day and run it on the same rollers.. not going to happen really as its a couple of days work to fit.

Edited by Guy182, 02 July 2007 - 06:40 PM.


#26 Winstar

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 07:39 PM

It been a while since I worked with these systems but, both CCs and IC are simply heat exchangers the performance of which depend on numerous factors of Flow Rate, Inlet Temps, Fluid Hea capacities, efficiency, etc. however for a well designed heat exchanger then provided there is enough cooling flow to reject all the energy then you can reduce it down to a thermal effectivness. Where Thermal effectiveness = T(air in) - T(air out) / T(air in) - T(coolant in) typically this can be between 80% and 90% depending on flow conditions and design, so you can see that an IC is always going to be 'better' than a CC as a CC has two heat exchangers in series so the overall effciency is more like 60% - 70% as the coolant coming out of the front rad will never be as low temp as the air going in the front of the car. However this also need enough cold air to reject all the heat which is the problem with a mid-engined car. The other probelm is if you do fit an IC then you end up rejecting heat in to an engine bay that doesn't have a good supply of cold air to start with. With fitting a large CC and front rad you reject the heat out of the front of the car where there is no shortage of cooling air.

Edited by Winstar, 02 July 2007 - 07:40 PM.


#27 Thorney

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 05:50 AM

That does make the suggestion that the CC radiates heat when infact it doesn't even get warm to the touch. We still maintain that keeping the IC and running the CC in line is a better solution than ditching the IC, seeing as we've done so many, with such good effect and run the identical system on a race car that is well beyond the requirements of road cars I'm happy with that decision. :)

#28 Winstar

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 07:18 AM

That does make the suggestion that the CC radiates heat when infact it doesn't even get warm to the touch. We still maintain that keeping the IC and running the CC in line is a better solution than ditching the IC, seeing as we've done so many, with such good effect and run the identical system on a race car that is well beyond the requirements of road cars I'm happy with that decision. :)


No it doesn't it says the IC radiates heat into the engine bay and the CC move the heat to the front of the car and radiates it from the front pre-rad.

Edited by Winstar, 03 July 2007 - 07:18 AM.


#29 Thorney

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 08:06 AM

Ah I see, I missread. The IC does radiate heat but we duct it out of the engine bay over the wheel. Given that the VXT has reasonalbe intake on the side the use of an IC is still the best way of getting intial heat down thena CC to drop it further. Appreciate both ideas must work of course, look at the Europa, it runs twin fans on the rad it gets so hot, we're re-designing our CC set up fit that too. :)

#30 Alex Os

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 10:50 AM

Appreciate both ideas must work of course, look at the Europa, it runs twin fans on the rad it gets so hot, we're re-designing our CC set up fit that too. :)

I think you will find the second fan is for the air con? ;)

#31 Thorney

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 10:52 AM

oh god, dont even get me started on the Europa differences, whilst its basically a VXT there are a whole load more issues that we need to deal with on that one :D

#32 MAP18W

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 11:03 AM

Had a brief chat with Alex_Os at Pro Alloy and he came up with the following regarding charge coolers (in between eating pies)...... Wow….. some interesting comments! Some may recall that the last time I posted on here about charge coolers it all got a little bit waspy. However, I will happily post some more info, not for any commercial gain but to maybe answer some of the questions relating to the reasoning behind the various aspects of any good charge cooler system design. As mentioned earlier, generally a conventional air to air intercooler could be considered as a more efficient method of cooling charge air than a water cooled intercooler (charge cooler). However, for any cooler, be it a water radiator or intercooler to operate efficiently it requires good air flow. This is where most mid or rear engine cars suffer. We have looked at, and worked on numerous different options for cooling solutions for various mid engine cars and have found with both the VXT and various turbo charged Elise conversions that its very difficult to design a suitably sized air to air intercooler which will see enough air flow to cool anything producing much more than 250bhp without major bodywork modifications. For this reason a charge cooler would be required. One of the key disadvantages of a charge cooler is heat-soak and there inability to dissipate heat once hot, this is due to there relatively high thermal mass. In order to combat this, the charge cooler system would require a reasonably large water volume, a good sized pre-rad and an effective way of circulating the coolant around the circuit. The smaller the water volume the faster the system will become saturated. A good example of a system which has been designed correctly would be an air charge temperature reading which increases as expected whilst the car is driven full throttle on maximum boost along a straight, then, during braking and slowing for a corner, cornering on partial throttle and then exiting the corner the charge air temps should reduce back down to a consistent level, then when back on full throttle along the next straight you should see peak temps not exceeding those from the previous full throttle run. Obviously, in a race environment the first couple of laps will see the ACT’s gradually increase until the system reaches its stabilised temperature. However, the key as to whether the system is performing adequately is what temperature the system becomes stabilised. PRE-RAD: One very important factor which directly affects the stabilised temperature, is the pre-rad. The airflow into the mouth of the VX is not only critical for pre-rad effectiveness but also for the water radiator efficiency. This was highlighted by Vauxhall discovering that the original position for the front number plate was very slightly too high and recommended that moving the number plate down would have a big effect on air flow to the radiator. Although installing the pre-rad in the mouth of the VX means its right at the front of the front, we felt that there simply wasn’t sufficient space to install a pre-rad of adequate dimensions, so in order to produce the optimum solution the front clam would need to be removed. With any cooling solution the surface area exposed to airflow is the key factor. A small cooler which is thick in section will generally be quite inefficient as the back part of the cooler will see negligible airflow and will be warm as it’s rejected from the front part of the cooler. Installing anything in front of the water radiator could potentially affect the water temps. However, over the years we have found the best way to combat this is to design a package which mounts both units closely together ensuring that the air is forced from one unit to the other. The air flow will always take the path of least resistance, so if a unit is mounted in free space the air will simply flow around the cooler making it quite inefficient. On applications such as the VX this can also dramatically disturb the air flow to the water radiator by causing the air to spin and turbulate before it turns within the crash structure to flow into the water radiator. We have seen this on some un-ducted front mounted intercooler installations, where the intercooler has been mounted with a large space between it and the water radiator, this results in both units working inefficiently. By fitting the pre-rad to the main radiator all the airflow entering the front of the car has to go through both units. In order to do this the original water radiator fan has to be removed but is replaced by two fans fixed to the pre-rad. These aren’t required to help with the charge cooler temperatures, they are simply there to operate in the same manor as the original fan set-up and operate from the original water temperature switch (although they can be switched independently also). CHARGE COOLER: Although charge air temperatures are a key factor when tuning any turbo charged engine, there are certain other important factors to consider. A charge cooling package which is capable of generating very low ACT’s may not necessarily provide the best tuning solution. Another important design criteria is the ability of the system to flow the charge air. If a system becomes restrictive to charge air flow the turbo will be required to work harder to flow the same levels of charge air, this in turn generates more heat, which is what you are trying to reduce. The standard intercooler is of marginal effectiveness. On my STANDARD vx, during ROAD testing we recorded peak inlet temperatures of 59°c with 20°c ambient temperatures. For this reason we totally remove the intercooler. JT is certainly correct in suggesting that the intercooler will help to reduce the charge air temps; however we felt that there wasn’t enough of a gain to warrant the potential restriction to air flow that this would add. The charge cooler unit has been designed to ensure that the air can flow smoothly with the inlet and outlet tanks shaped to help the charge air pass through with as little turbulence as possible. These considerations will help to ensure the car feels responsive and not laggy and holds boost at higher rpm. Another very important consideration is to ensure that which ever kit you opt to buy, that the air temperature sensor is mounted after the charge cooler. Although this would appear obvious, we have seen some kits which utilise the original intercooler with a charge cooler installed on the outlet side, but still leave the air temperature sensor in the intercooler. The result of this is that the ECU will read the charge air temperatures at the outlet of the intercooler before it has been cooled by the charge cooler, this results in the ECU backing the power off as its not sensing the true charge air temperatures and believes that the temps are actually far higher. There are many cooling options available for the VXT, all of which have some positive and some negative issues. However, our kit has been specifically designed for cars running at least stage 4 and has been well proven on our own 296bhp car. We believe this has been designed with as little compromise in performance as possible ensuring that the kit performs properly in all aspects.

#33 danyeates

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 11:13 AM

Great thanks, turns out the guy who is making the kit for me, also know Wayne at Pro-alloy very well!

#34 Guy182

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 01:58 PM

Great thanks, turns out the guy who is making the kit for me, also know Wayne at Pro-alloy very well!



nice chap

took me round cadwell in his 20vt Exige bodied elise:)




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