57 replies to this topic

[Mike (Cliffie)]

How about fitting a Davis Craig electric water pump? Can the innards be removed from the OE pump and still make a seal?

[techieboy]

Think Rik fitted an electric water pump to his car. Not sure what he did with the OE pump though, nor whether he ever cracked it (from memory I think he had a lot air lock problems initially).

[Steffe]

OK! I have now searched the internet about this balanceshaft removal.

My understanding is:
The ECOTEC engine is a world wide GM platform designed 1995-1999 at LOTUS to
fill all GM needs in this engine size.
The balanceshafts are probably there to give a smoother an torqueier engine for a typical standard car application.
GM has a racing and a Performance part department wich has developed and tested an array of tuning parts.
One of this is the GM racing Balance Shaft Elimation kit XGH676 (this has a chain follower and shorter chain).
You also need a kit to seal the oil channels.
The reinforcement of the tensioner is probably not necessary for a moderately tuned engine
The XGH676 kit is probably not commersially avaliable (will check this).
A good resource for ECOTEC tuning is this site: www.gmtunersource.com

In short I will try to do this kit myself by shorten the standard chain and modify one of the standard followers (and of course sealing the oil channels). I think this will work and give some horsepowers

More info later...

Edited by Steffe, 28 November 2009 - 06:48 PM.

[Muncher]

I don't see what's wrong with vocky's patented method, would you really gain anything at all by faffing about and doing something different?

[vocky]

I really, really wanted to do the short chain method, but the balancer delete is a proven mod and you don't gain anything more from spending money doing the short chain version. balancer delete is a free mod, the short chain method requires at least a pair of front oilway blanking plugs and another chain guide making - the standard guides don't fit, I've already tried but I'm tempted to fit an electric pump and remove the chain completely

Edited by vocky, 28 November 2009 - 08:36 PM.

[Steffe]

Well you are probably right. Its proven, fast, simple and a no cost solution. Its just the feeling that it could be done even more cleanly, with as few moving parts as possible. Regarding power losses, there will always be extra friction and mass to accelarate in the long chain solution. So the optimum would still be the short chain kit, even if it only gives a small power gain. Of course the best thing would be to replace the waterpump with an electric, microprocessor controlled unit. Strange that there isnt any OEM electric waterpumps from Bosch (or similar) that can be used. Electric waterpumps gives a clear benefit in fuel consumption so they will emerge sooner or later I think. I do not like the Craig waterpumps being made in glassfilled polyamid. This is not the optimum plastic material for hot waterpumps I think.

Edited by Steffe, 28 November 2009 - 10:26 PM.

[Muncher]

The friction to turn the cut down shafts is virtually nothing, I doubt you could even measure it.

[Steffe]

Well, I thought of the friction between the chain and followers. Friction between chain and balanceshaft wheels. Internal friction in chain when it is changing bending radius. Plus the extra mass of the moving system. Think of this system running at 6000rpm, probably at least 1,2hp extra loss

[Muncher]

Well, I thought of the friction between the chain and followers. Friction between chain and balanceshaft wheels.
Internal friction in chain when it is changing bending radius.
Plus the extra mass of the moving system.

Think of this system running at 6000rpm, probably at least 1,2hp extra loss

Personally I don't see that at all, the idler wheels turn with so little friction, you're probably talking 0.01bhp, it's negligible.

[vocky]

I know Alanoo asked his friend who works for a F1 team and the reply was the bhp gain would be negligible between the two chain systems. Which is why I gave up the idea

[Steffe]

Vocky it feels that you really has thought this through You have convinced me its probably better to put tuning-energi in other areas. Though I still think that there is some measurable losses when you force the chain around those extra bendings, but we can leave it at that. Thank you for your input (Vocky and Muncher).

Edited by Steffe, 29 November 2009 - 09:48 PM.

[Muncher]

Vocky it feels that you really has thought this through
You have convinced me its probably better to put tuning-energi in other areas.

Though I still think that there is some measurable losses when you force the chain around those
extra bendings, but we can leave it at that.

Thank you for your input (Vocky and Muncher).

As you say yes there will be some but the time and effort you put into that would be far better spent in other areas.

[Anarchy]

I really, really wanted to do the short chain method, but the balancer delete is a proven mod and you don't gain anything more from spending money doing the short chain version.

balancer delete is a free mod, the short chain method requires at least a pair of front oilway blanking plugs and another chain guide making - the standard guides don't fit, I've already tried

but I'm tempted to fit an electric pump and remove the chain completely

How is it free I thought you need to buy plain shafts or modified gears with no shaft?

[theolodian]

How is it free I thought you need to buy plain shafts or modified gears with no shaft?

Almost free. You need to cut your shafts, or have someone do it for you.

[rsg]

I really, really wanted to do the short chain method, but the balancer delete is a proven mod and you don't gain anything more from spending money doing the short chain version.

balancer delete is a free mod, the short chain method requires at least a pair of front oilway blanking plugs and another chain guide making - the standard guides don't fit, I've already tried

but I'm tempted to fit an electric pump and remove the chain completely

How is it free I thought you need to buy plain shafts or modified gears with no shaft?

As I understand it:

-take shafts+sprockets out and dismantle,
-cut counter weights off shaft ends,
-knock bearings further into block to cover the oil feed,
-refit whats left of the shafts to the sprockets and refit.

Edited by rsg, 29 November 2009 - 10:18 PM.

[Exmantaa]

Well, I thought of the friction between the chain and followers. Friction between chain and balanceshaft wheels.
Internal friction in chain when it is changing bending radius.
Plus the extra mass of the moving system.

Think of this system running at 6000rpm, probably at least 1,2hp extra loss

A fellow Dutch Speedster mechanic made his own version of the short chain method with new chainguides. (I have one...)
See: http://www.speedster...p...c&start=150


He also made inserts for the old shaft bearings, but the major problem still is the necessary shorter chain. In September there was still no solution for this yet...

[vocky]

that chain guide will wear very quickly, there is too great an angle where the chain goes around the bottom and on to the crank sprocket [attachment=21614:img_0128__small_.jpg] this was the reason the standard guides could not be used. The guy in the states has done well over 50,000 miles using idler gears (balancer delete method), so no long term issues

Edited by vocky, 30 November 2009 - 10:54 AM.

[Exmantaa]

Yep, we spotted that same problem but is solved easily with some better allignment. But the main problem is making/closing the shortened chain, as no firm can/is willing to do this reliably. Idler gears are the simple and proven solution for this. ;-)