42 replies to this topic

[Mike (Cliffie)]

DOH

Edited by Cliffie, 04 March 2010 - 01:02 PM.

[Mike (Cliffie)]

[quote name='Cliffie' date='04 March 2010 - 12:56 PM' timestamp='1267707401' post='1005132']
[quote name='Phear' date='04 March 2010 - 08:51 AM' timestamp='1267692712' post='1005031']
S/C is the way to go and it can be done for less than £4k.
[/quote]

You can indeed. I was budgeting for buying all bits new (except SC and Inlet) with stage 2 including charge cooler and a new exhaust system with manifold. Plus remap at £245 plus £95 per hour on the dyno.

My SC cost me less than £2k as I had the exhaust (sort of) and already had the map.

Edited by Cliffie, 04 March 2010 - 01:03 PM.

[oakmere]

I see lots of topics on here regarding the 2.2 NA engine. However, it seems to me that there seem to be no solutions to unlocking hp from this engine.

Has anyone made over 200 bhp for sensible money? Or for any money at all?

I have owned a big power turbo car in the past and although it was exciting, it had it's downsides which I don't want to repeat.

My preference is for linear power, no turbo lag & power building progressively towards 7,000 rpm.

Is this a possibility?

Sorry I meant to reply to you in the other thread, but the main problem with power from the 2.2 as an NA is the port design*. The ports are designed to be curved and the entrance is low compared to the exit this means that they create good tumble of the air at low engine speeds and hence good torque. However it also means that at high engine speeds they become a restriction, you can port them to improve thing but compared to other engines they don't have the height to create a stright flow path into the cylinder. It is also why the engine responds so well to FI as air speed is less important

I agree with you about the turbo cars, thats why I sold the stg 4 VXT I had and went back to my NA.

*Aledgedly GM didn't like the 'look' of the first design so they got Lotus to changed it before testing them although they had ma, when they tested them they performed brilliantly. However they'd gone so far down the road with the seconod design they couldn't go back and lets just say they where no where near as good.

When I was at Phoenix last year they had a Honda v-tec engine with no inlet manifold on and the inlet port was about twice the size of our 2.2.

Oakmere

[markv]

techie that is because none of them have made it to a rolling road.... there claims are as good as me saying i have 12 foot penis and when i get a erection i faint....

on that note, good night

Yes but they can hit the Speed limiter (not the rev limiter). I doubt you can do that with less than 200 hp on a flat road.

There is no speed limiter the speed limit will be the the rev limit in top gear, if you have enough power to get there.

There IS a speed limiter. In the ECU there are 2 limiters:

- rev limiter, standard 6400rpm
- speed limiter, standaard 242km/h

The speed limiter is the speed seen by the ECU. On my car it hit at 230km/h GPS speed. Revlimiter at the time was already
raised to 7000rpm, and it didn't hit the revlimiter..

Latest version of the software has it also configurable as you can see on the screenshot below (sorry, text is dutch):



It is the second line "Snelheids Begrenzer" (dutch for speed limiter). Usually set it to 300km/h so you don't hit it..

Mark

[techieboy]

Has Peter made any more progress on his SC conversion yet, Mark? I'll be on the ferry and driving over the moment he has something that will happily work with the SC (wonder if it would deal with the Harrop as well ).

[oakmere]

techie that is because none of them have made it to a rolling road.... there claims are as good as me saying i have 12 foot penis and when i get a erection i faint....

on that note, good night

Yes but they can hit the Speed limiter (not the rev limiter). I doubt you can do that with less than 200 hp on a flat road.

There is no speed limiter the speed limit will be the the rev limit in top gear, if you have enough power to get there.

There IS a speed limiter. In the ECU there are 2 limiters:

- rev limiter, standard 6400rpm
- speed limiter, standaard 242km/h

The speed limiter is the speed seen by the ECU. On my car it hit at 230km/h GPS speed. Revlimiter at the time was already
raised to 7000rpm, and it didn't hit the revlimiter..

Latest version of the software has it also configurable as you can see on the screenshot below (sorry, text is dutch):



It is the second line "Snelheids Begrenzer" (dutch for speed limiter). Usually set it to 300km/h so you don't hit it..

Mark

Has Peter not thought of marketing his software over here through a tuner or a trusted member such as Vocky?

Cheers Oakmere

[markv]

Has Peter made any more progress on his SC conversion yet, Mark? I'll be on the ferry and driving over the moment he has something that will happily work with the SC (wonder if it would deal with the Harrop as well ).

He has some solid plans for a conversion based on a rotrex. But he is also still finding new information. We ran into some interesting things while trying to get
a speedster running correctly with a set of compcams camshafts. Despite these being the stage ones, the car wouldn't idle very nice and didn't make emission standards.
After Peter did the remap on it, it idled at 1200rpm (sounded quite ok actually) and made emission standards. A week later we found out that one of the rockers had failed
probably very soon after the original installation of the camshafts. So even with one exhaust valve missing Peter was able to map it correctly

See below two links:

http://www.verboom.n...ngle=20100213.0

http://www.verboom.n...ngle=20100220.0

Has Peter not thought of marketing his software over here through a tuner or a trusted member such as Vocky?

Cheers Oakmere

He has no plans at the moment. It is quite a big step to convert something into a product which you can distribute and sell.
The PC software isn't released yet for the owners that have had their cars modified even. But hopefully this all will change
in future, its way too cool

Mark

[Paulus H]

I see lots of topics on here regarding the 2.2 NA engine. However, it seems to me that there seem to be no solutions to unlocking hp from this engine.

Has anyone made over 200 bhp for sensible money? Or for any money at all?

I have owned a big power turbo car in the past and although it was exciting, it had it's downsides which I don't want to repeat.

My preference is for linear power, no turbo lag & power building progressively towards 7,000 rpm.

Is this a possibility?

Sorry I meant to reply to you in the other thread, but the main problem with power from the 2.2 as an NA is the port design*. The ports are designed to be curved and the entrance is low compared to the exit this means that they create good tumble of the air at low engine speeds and hence good torque. However it also means that at high engine speeds they become a restriction, you can port them to improve thing but compared to other engines they don't have the height to create a stright flow path into the cylinder. It is also why the engine responds so well to FI as air speed is less important

I agree with you about the turbo cars, thats why I sold the stg 4 VXT I had and went back to my NA.

*Aledgedly GM didn't like the 'look' of the first design so they got Lotus to changed it before testing them although they had ma, when they tested them they performed brilliantly. However they'd gone so far down the road with the seconod design they couldn't go back and lets just say they where no where near as good.

Ironic really, one of the engines DV spent a lot of time on was also dramatically held back by it's head design. Both by it's ports but also by it's combustion chamber design....

Many, many thanks for your input. You're insight adds a different dimension to this forum. You also reminded me how fast the years have passed by...

Best regards, Paul

[theolodian]

Sorry I meant to reply to you in the other thread, but the main problem with power from the 2.2 as an NA is the port design*. The ports are designed to be curved and the entrance is low compared to the exit this means that they create good tumble of the air at low engine speeds and hence good torque. However it also means that at high engine speeds they become a restriction, you can port them to improve thing but compared to other engines they don't have the height to create a stright flow path into the cylinder. It is also why the engine responds so well to FI as air speed is less important

I agree with you about the turbo cars, thats why I sold the stg 4 VXT I had and went back to my NA.

Thanks, that explains a lot to me. Is it easier to just put the Saab head on? IIRC that's what Vocky did.

Btw, you can map a turbo car to have really smooth delivery, but most people want them maxed out and that's why they hit hard. I have been tempted to put a 3076 on my 2.2 just to show how smooth 250 - 350hp can be done that way. You can have good peak power, but if you leave the torque well below max then it can be very smooth. Not smoother than a s/c of course, but still very easy to drive.

That turbo is capable of about 500hp, and if you were trying to run that much it would hit very aggressively.

[Winstar]

Thanks, that explains a lot to me. Is it easier to just put the Saab head on? IIRC that's what Vocky did.

Btw, you can map a turbo car to have really smooth delivery, but most people want them maxed out and that's why they hit hard. I have been tempted to put a 3076 on my 2.2 just to show how smooth 250 - 350hp can be done that way. You can have good peak power, but if you leave the torque well below max then it can be very smooth. Not smoother than a s/c of course, but still very easy to drive.

That turbo is capable of about 500hp, and if you were trying to run that much it would hit very aggressively.

Unfortunatly IIRC the SAAB head is essentially the same as the z22se but sand cast rather than lost foam. Although there may be a bit more material you can remove when porting and remove more due to the stronger material

Yeh I agree about the mapping thing part of the problem was going from 150lbft @ 2000rpm to 304 @ 3000rpm made it a bit of a pain to drive in traffic. But my main dislike was the throttle response which is never going to be as sharp in a turbo. Still not decided whether to go SC or not yet though.

Edited by Winstar, 05 March 2010 - 09:01 AM.

[siztenboots]

~185 hp is "easy" and affordable to get
Anything higher will mean a lot more work.

I still don't believe you could get +15 hp with a remap even on those tuned engines,
Give me two dyno sheets before and after from an independant dyno (not a tuner or a remap shop),and I may change my point of view

anything even an AFR graph , would soon be able to see what breathing improvement they have done.

[The Batman]

Still not decided whether to go SC or not yet though.

more than welcome to have ago in mine if you are near

[Seb.F]

I'll be closer.. soon!

[theolodian]

Unfortunatly IIRC the SAAB head is essentially the same as the z22se but sand cast rather than lost foam. Although there may be a bit more material you can remove when porting and remove more due to the stronger material

Yeh I agree about the mapping thing part of the problem was going from 150lbft @ 2000rpm to 304 @ 3000rpm made it a bit of a pain to drive in traffic. But my main dislike was the throttle response which is never going to be as sharp in a turbo. Still not decided whether to go SC or not yet though.

OK, thanks again. I won't worry about the head then.

So don't go for 300 ft-lbs. You can get the peak power without the torque on a turbo. You can get good response with a turbo, certainly far better than most expect, but it will never be quite as good as an NA or s/c. The clear winner on getting proven drivable power out of the 2.2 in the VX is the s/c. I plan to faff around with ITBs for the fun of it, not for power.

[2-20]

Has Peter made any more progress on his SC conversion yet, Mark? I'll be on the ferry and driving over the moment he has something that will happily work with the SC (wonder if it would deal with the Harrop as well ).

He has some solid plans for a conversion based on a rotrex. But he is also still finding new information. We ran into some interesting things while trying to get
a speedster running correctly with a set of compcams camshafts. Despite these being the stage ones, the car wouldn't idle very nice and didn't make emission standards.
After Peter did the remap on it, it idled at 1200rpm (sounded quite ok actually) and made emission standards. A week later we found out that one of the rockers had failed
probably very soon after the original installation of the camshafts. So even with one exhaust valve missing Peter was able to map it correctly

See below two links:

http://www.verboom.n...ngle=20100213.0

http://www.verboom.n...ngle=20100220.0

Has Peter not thought of marketing his software over here through a tuner or a trusted member such as Vocky?

Cheers Oakmere

He has no plans at the moment. It is quite a big step to convert something into a product which you can distribute and sell.
The PC software isn't released yet for the owners that have had their cars modified even. But hopefully this all will change
in future, its way too cool

Mark

Dear Mark,

On your second link, you say that the timing is spot on.
I've read on Compcam generic instructions(also given for the stage 1) that the cam timing is set from factory to 4 degrees of advance.
(See this link on page 2: HERE
Did you see these four degrees of advance ? or is the cam timing at 0 (intake at 110)

[Welshiejon]

hey guys im attempting a high hp z22se ill post in projects but it wont be finished any time soon so far steel crank, steel rods ,xe high compretions .25 pistons,lightened flywheel,cnc ported head, cat cams,p8 pro ecu, custom exhaust manifold tbc lol

[slindborg]

~185 hp is "easy" and affordable to get
Anything higher will mean a lot more work.

I still don't believe you could get +15 hp with a remap even on those tuned engines,
Give me two dyno sheets before and after from an independant dyno (not a tuner or a remap shop),and I may change my point of view

anything even an AFR graph , would soon be able to see what breathing improvement they have done.

you mean if its leaner than 11:1 the valves will fall apart

[FLD]

Still not decided whether to go SC or not yet though.

more than welcome to have ago in mine if you are near

Welcome to a go in mine too if you want.

[2198cc]

I helped build up a 200.8 bhp engine the other month, it had;

ported head, standard valves and springs, piper cams
piper 4-1 exhaust manifold, 200 cell cat, 2.5" exhaust system
dbilas inlet manifold, ported 58mm throttle body, standard airbox with panel filter
lightened flywheel and crank pulley
balancer delete
superchips remap

I'm not sure which injectors it had fitted when mapped but suspect they were maxed out

Tuning NA engines is never really cheap, but they are fun to drive when finished

There are a few z22se NA engines with over 220 bhp, but you need to raise the compression ratio, fit steel rods and throttle bodies, plus a few other tweaks

Thats my car!
Ive never seen someone work so fast, Vocky had my engine out in less then 2 hours!

[smiley]

anything even an AFR graph , would soon be able to see what breathing improvement they have done.

No idea what AFR stands for, but here's a graph from an early adaptor, taken in second gear.
Graph is taken during the rolling test they after the new map was loaded.
No independant dyno test has been done so far as far as i know, so it's just indicative.
(full tullet, 2.4 inlet and the dutch remap)