27 replies to this topic

[_Dan_]

Hi again All, In the supercharger conversion, is the inlet air temp sensor re-used? (the one in the plastic inlet pipework) It seems a bit pointless measuring charger inlet temp? If it's not re-used, what happens to the wiring? Is it just left unconnected? Cheers, Dan

[Seb.F]

Mine is inside the silicone hose. Just screwed a small hole in it and pushed the sensor in.

[Phear]

Pretty sure thats and Air Mass Meter anyway I doubt it does much but as Seb says just pop it in the intake pipe.

[Steve B]

On a similar subject what are the AIT's like on a stage 1 200bhp supercharger compared to a 250bhp chargecooled setup? I presume the 250bhp setup spins the charger more so the charge cooler is needed to drop temps back down rather than the cooler air allowing more timing and making power thant way?

[Phear]

On a similar subject what are the AIT's like on a stage 1 200bhp supercharger compared to a 250bhp chargecooled setup? I presume the 250bhp setup spins the charger more so the charge cooler is needed to drop temps back down rather than the cooler air allowing more timing and making power thant way?

Correct, the (H)eaton is a roots charger and roots chargers don't technically compress the air they just shove it into the manifold. Doing so compresses it in the manifold but this compression generates heat, the more you ram in (smaller pulley wheel) the hotter it gets. Hot air = lower performance and the risk of detonation. The laminova charge cooler on the Stage 2 (they aren't actually added as the GM inlet manifold comes with as standard they are just removed for Stage 1) gets around this problem by cooling the air before it enters the engine. You can fit an even smaller pulley wheel for up to 300bhp (and extra whine!) with uprated internals but you need an efficient charge cooling system (e.g. Dual Pass + Pro-Alloy Rad).

[NickB787]

On a similar subject what are the AIT's like on a stage 1 200bhp supercharger compared to a 250bhp chargecooled setup? I presume the 250bhp setup spins the charger more so the charge cooler is needed to drop temps back down rather than the cooler air allowing more timing and making power thant way?

Correct, the (H)eaton is a roots charger and roots chargers don't technically compress the air they just shove it into the manifold. Doing so compresses it in the manifold but this compression generates heat, the more you ram in (smaller pulley wheel) the hotter it gets. Hot air = lower performance and the risk of detonation. The laminova charge cooler on the Stage 2 (they aren't actually added as the GM inlet manifold comes with as standard they are just removed for Stage 1) gets around this problem by cooling the air before it enters the engine. You can fit an even smaller pulley wheel for up to 300bhp (and extra whine!) with uprated internals but you need an efficient charge cooling system (e.g. Dual Pass + Pro-Alloy Rad).

or fit a larger s/c less compression of air therfore less heat, more efficient, more power

Edited by NickB777, 01 June 2010 - 07:33 PM.

[Phear]

Yup, i.e Harrop

[Steve B]

On a similar subject what are the AIT's like on a stage 1 200bhp supercharger compared to a 250bhp chargecooled setup? I presume the 250bhp setup spins the charger more so the charge cooler is needed to drop temps back down rather than the cooler air allowing more timing and making power thant way?

Correct, the (H)eaton is a roots charger and roots chargers don't technically compress the air they just shove it into the manifold. Doing so compresses it in the manifold but this compression generates heat, the more you ram in (smaller pulley wheel) the hotter it gets. Hot air = lower performance and the risk of detonation. The laminova charge cooler on the Stage 2 (they aren't actually added as the GM inlet manifold comes with as standard they are just removed for Stage 1) gets around this problem by cooling the air before it enters the engine. You can fit an even smaller pulley wheel for up to 300bhp (and extra whine!) with uprated internals but you need an efficient charge cooling system (e.g. Dual Pass + Pro-Alloy Rad).

or fit a larger s/c less compression of air therfore less heat, more efficient, more power

Basically I was trying to decide on what setup to go for when I do. If AIT's on the stage 1 and 2 are the same I'll go stage 1, if AIT's on stage 2 are higher I'll alsolutely definately go stage 1. If AIT's on stage 2 are lower then I may consider the stage 2.

[Phear]

Basically I was trying to decide on what setup to go for when I do. If AIT's on the stage 1 and 2 are the same I'll go stage 1, if AIT's on stage 2 are higher I'll alsolutely definately go stage 1. If AIT's on stage 2 are lower then I may consider the stage 2.

Not sure why AIT's are that important to you but basically they will be dependant on how good your Charge Cooler setup is. There is no easy way to measure Intake Temps as theres nowhere to put a temp guage on the manifold but I'd expect them to be similar on both setups with a decent CC setup on Stage 2.

[Steve B]

Basically I was trying to decide on what setup to go for when I do. If AIT's on the stage 1 and 2 are the same I'll go stage 1, if AIT's on stage 2 are higher I'll alsolutely definately go stage 1. If AIT's on stage 2 are lower then I may consider the stage 2.

Not sure why AIT's are that important to you but basically they will be dependant on how good your Charge Cooler setup is. There is no easy way to measure Intake Temps as theres nowhere to put a temp guage on the manifold but I'd expect them to be similar on both setups with a decent CC setup on Stage 2.

Its important to me because the cars on the stock management and the remapping seems iffy at best to me with compensation tables apparently the cause of most problems. Stock n/a I can't imagine the tables exist for the sort of temps you could see coming out of a charger so AIT's worry me - particularly if the sensor remains pre charger, is that for definate? I think looking at plots I've seen fuel appears to be just dumped in with AFR's into the 10's to compensate. So whichever setup runs the coolest is the one i'd be happiest running. Of course I could go for the stage 1 pully setup but charge cooled, but then thats a lot of cash that may not be necessary. Actually not sure I'd want to run either setup on the stock ECU if something as simple as AIT compensations not closed loop..

[NickB787]

yea but your will get it mapped for the appropriate stage you have decided to go too, you cant just fit the s/c and leave the ecu with the oem map

[Steve B]

yea but your will get it mapped for the appropriate stage you have decided to go too, you cant just fit the s/c and leave the ecu with the oem map

I know that but the remapping seems crap to be honest looking at peoples dyno plots. I'd be happier I think mapping a standalone myself, I just struggle to find the time I need so dropping it at Courtneys seems the easiest answer but I want to know technicalities.

I've mapped my MX5 turbo up to 260bhp and once my forged engine goes in i'll be mapping that to around the 330 area, been on the MoTeC training courses so know what I'm doing with a standalone. I just decided not to persue it as a career, got my knockblock and wideband though.

Edited by Steve B, 01 June 2010 - 09:39 PM.

[NickB787]

one problem the 2.2 has always had with mapping is the the Damos file has never Been available so real fine tunning hasn't been there. The vxt however has been able to be mapped properly due to the ecu being fully cracked. If you hand on a little longer you may find Courtenays will be doing an s/c with a z20let ecu so should be easier to work with. I was going standalone and in fact have almost everything ready for it but as they are so close I will hang on a little longer. at least I can keep the FBW TB without going cable, I don't fancy paying the think end of a grand for the ecu that allows me keep the FBW. which ECU are you mapping?

[Steve B]

Double post

Edited by Steve B, 01 June 2010 - 10:05 PM.

[Steve B]

one problem the 2.2 has always had with mapping is the the Damos file has never Been available so real fine tunning hasn't been there. The vxt however has been able to be mapped properly due to the ecu being fully cracked. If you hand on a little longer you may find Courtenays will be doing an s/c with a z20let ecu so should be easier to work with.

I was going standalone and in fact have almost everything ready for it but as they are so close I will hang on a little longer. at least I can keep the FBW TB without going cable, I don't fancy paying the think end of a grand for the ecu that allows me keep the FBW.

which ECU are you mapping?

I've a LINK G3 on my mazda but I'd not be concerned about trying any of the main manufacturers such as AEM, Motec, Solaris principal is always the same its just how menus are layed out and what keys are used. I quite like the idea of ditching the FBW as its the thing thats been most unreliable on my car and when I had my old accord going between cars you noticed the lag and damping on the VX really badly.

If Courtney are going to a fully cracked ECU then thats good news

Thesedays the simple way i.e give car to someone else and sort fits in with life much more easily. My MX5 rebuild I'm a good 2 months behind on even though I got other people to build the engine and cage

Edited by Steve B, 01 June 2010 - 10:08 PM.

[Exmantaa]

If you hand on a little longer you may find Courtenays will be doing an s/c with a z20let ecu so should be easier to work with.

I was going standalone and in fact have almost everything ready for it but as they are so close I will hang on a little longer.

Any more info on this? They probably work together with Stephan Klasen on this ECU, so good news.
Do you know specs of the engine/charger? Can imagine it has a Saab head for the needed DI coils + cam sensor.

[slindborg]

one problem the 2.2 has always had with mapping is the the Damos file has never Been available so real fine tunning hasn't been there. The vxt however has been able to be mapped properly due to the ecu being fully cracked. If you hand on a little longer you may find Courtenays will be doing an s/c with a z20let ecu so should be easier to work with.

I was going standalone and in fact have almost everything ready for it but as they are so close I will hang on a little longer. at least I can keep the FBW TB without going cable, I don't fancy paying the think end of a grand for the ecu that allows me keep the FBW.

which ECU are you mapping?

I've a LINK G3 on my mazda but I'd not be concerned about trying any of the main manufacturers such as AEM, Motec, Solaris principal is always the same its just how menus are layed out and what keys are used. I quite like the idea of ditching the FBW as its the thing thats been most unreliable on my car and when I had my old accord going between cars you noticed the lag and damping on the VX really badly.

If Courtney are going to a fully cracked ECU then thats good news

Thesedays the simple way i.e give car to someone else and sort fits in with life much more easily. My MX5 rebuild I'm a good 2 months behind on even though I got other people to build the engine and cage

Aside from a p*ss poor exit from idle drive to driver demand drive, the VX 2.2 throttle is hugely undamped and one of the best ETB'd cars I've driven.
You want a heavily damped ETB, try the 1.8 MK4 astra it wont even lift off oversteer unless doing very very dangerous speeds.

An AEM F/IC would do the job nicely on the 2.2 as its used on the L61 in the states, only drawback is no ign advance.
It cant be 'that' hard to get a manifold temp sensor in there if you really want to make the std remapped system work well.
The turnip munchers certainly seem to have got their act together regarding the calibration of the S/C cars.

Oh, Steve, have you seen a 100% std N/A on the rollers and the fuel plot to go with?.... Fuelley isnt the word
I have it on good authoroty from a chap who worked on the L61/Z22 that they had to just dump fuel in at load to stop the valve heads dropping off on the extended runs , I imagine you could simply throw in some boost and not have any problems on a std map at all

[NickB787]

If you hand on a little longer you may find Courtenays will be doing an s/c with a z20let ecu so should be easier to work with.

I was going standalone and in fact have almost everything ready for it but as they are so close I will hang on a little longer.

Any more info on this? They probably work together with Stephan Klasen on this ECU, so good news.
Do you know specs of the engine/charger? Can imagine it has a Saab head for the needed DI coils + cam sensor.

Yet work is with Stephan they are using a standard z22se head with an external trigger wheel, z20let ecu and loom modded for whats left of the original setup. coil pack is sorted

Most guys are running M62 uprated rods, comp s/c cams uprated pistons although some I think may have standard (limit about 310ish) dual pass mod with charge cooler. Smaller pulleys were also around but not certain how many have them on and that gives almost 300bhp. The uprated ecu should allow some more to be got out of this package, however the pistons first, fueling then inlet temps with the smaller Pulley will be limiting.


I will be running s/c cams, uprated LP pistons, smaller pulley, dual pass, ect.ect and of course my Harrop

Edited by NickB777, 02 June 2010 - 01:08 PM.

[slindborg]

If you hand on a little longer you may find Courtenays will be doing an s/c with a z20let ecu so should be easier to work with.

I was going standalone and in fact have almost everything ready for it but as they are so close I will hang on a little longer.

Any more info on this? They probably work together with Stephan Klasen on this ECU, so good news.
Do you know specs of the engine/charger? Can imagine it has a Saab head for the needed DI coils + cam sensor.

Yet work is with Stephan they are using a standard z22se head with an external trigger wheel, z20let ecu and loom modded for whats left of the original setup. coil pack is sorted

Most guys are running M62 uprated rods, comp s/c cams uprated pistons although some I think may have standard (limit about 310ish) dual pass mod with charge cooler. Smaller pulleys were also around but not certain how many have them on and that gives almost 300bhp. The uprated ecu should allow some more to be got out of this package, however the pistons first, fueling then inlet temps with the smaller Pulley will be limiting.


I will be running s/c cams, uprated LP pistons, smaller pulley, dual pass, ect.ect and of course my Harrop

and hope that your liners dont say no

[Seb.F]

and hope that your liners dont say no

Thought the Z22 ones were okay to 440ish? Aren't they?