153 replies to this topic

[Whiteboy]

Doesn't look a lot of area around it to me. And the air not only flows around the IC, but also through it.

Have you actually seen one in person or are you just go on Photo?

Your missing my point on the IC for it to work it's will pretty much fill the ear so the majority of the flow you'll get is through it.

I haven't seen on in person no.

And I do get your point. I guess the point I am making is some airflow (i.e. through and around the IC) is better than no airflow i.e. considerably blocked vent with the CC.

I think you are missing the point a little. Yes an intercooler allows more air flow into the right ear, but then dumps ALL of it very hot gasses into the engine bay. All the air passing the charge cooler is ambient air. Lets remember that lotus found this out 7 to 8 years ago, with the sprint project. The pace charge cooler as mentioned earlier was developed around this period. Alex at pro alloy found out some years later that he could improve the design and made a bigger charge cooler and pre rad.

Steve

Edited by Whiteboy, 24 June 2010 - 04:28 PM.

[Whiteboy]

The guys in Europe have used a big intercooler which looks about the same size and they all say in the real world its good for a road 280 bhb

Steve

Cheers for all the development info Steve.
I'm sure a big intercooler will work to a certain point, but common sence tells me the theroy of removing heat from the engine bay has got to be a big plus.
As Winstar mentioned Thorneys heat problems were probably contributed by leaving the standard intercooler in, causing high engine bay temps which then led to (distant memory) crank sensor melting!
Improved air flow ducting from undertray would probably help...?
And totaly loosing boot, with a lambo style mesh rear end.

The intercooler on an astra vxr is about the same size as our water radiator and this is good for about 350bhp. Can you imagine fitting that on the VX. It would have to go on the roll over bar at best and would look shocking.

[Glambee]

Hi there, Last week during the French meeting, we made some measurements of IAT with differents uprated IC, during the trackday. We find that temperatures would vary between 74°C and 94°C at the end of the straight line (around 5500RPM in 4th gear), depending on the setting (with or without larger ears, with or without airflow guides), the IC type (VX Performance or other source) and the map (stage 2.5 to 3 on the European scale, so circa 250BHP to 275BHP). These values were recorded after at least 10 laps done within the last hour, so engines were pretty hot. Just as a comparison, one VX220 with OEM IC and standard map (200BHP) was recorded at 66°C. We found also that spark advance would begin to decrease after 50°C, eventually becoming a delay at around 85°C. As nobody in France as a charge cooler, we would like to know if someone from this side of the Channel and with this type of intake air cooling device (ProAlloy or Thorney) has already recorded his IAT on track? Thanks for your help, wish we can help the community to progress on that topic with those new data.

[Tommess]

Well, I have recorded before / after installing the ProAlloy chargecooler. But it also depends on the track, the amount of WOT per lap, the speeds that are driven and so on. So a real back to back test procedure is the best. I haven't done any diagrams, but the chargecooler is about three to four times as efficient as my old Projekt Opel intercooler (which is a pretty large one). Thr problem imho is that you won't get enough cool air to the intercooler, the side scoops are way to little in order to cool the intake air. For example at a summer's day (22°C ambient) with PO IC the temps rose from 24°C to 60°C 3rd / 4th gear 70-210km/h. With the PA CC this would be 28°C to 43°C. And this is only for 12s of hard acceleration. So to put it short, a chargecooler is the best way to go! And for all the weight weenies, the PA CC-kit weighs 14,25kg plus around 7 litres of coolant. My old PO intercooler was rather heavy with approx 6kg, so there's an additional weight of about 16kg which is distributed very evenly between front and rear.

[The Batman]

popcorn munching until turbobob sees this

[mulletmaster]

Is there no chargecooler producer other than PA who seem to charge a clean fortune for everything!?

[Tommess]

popcorn munching until turbobob sees this

This is only facts!

Is there no chargecooler producer other than PA who seem to charge a clean fortune for everything!?

Yes, it's a fortune, but it is a real bespoke kit with a lot of development which should be honoured too!

[mulletmaster]

Well are there any less bespoke highly developed kits about then? I have no gripe with PA but simply could afford or justify buying any of their bits.

[alanoo]

I saw the redbull exige a few pages earlier... Just to remind everyone the race GT3 Exiges started with an intercooler, and moved to a chargecooling solution later with much better performance and aerodynamics

[The Batman]

Well are there any less bespoke highly developed kits about then? I have no gripe with PA but simply could afford or justify buying any of their bits.

Pace made a kit dunno if they still sell it..

[P11 COV]

Those temps seem quite high. I don't believe I've ever seen more than 40 C on my charge cooled 300bhp.

[cs_]

I haven't done any diagrams

As you know I did a year ago.


one full acceleration in fith gear from ~140km/h to ~265km/h:
(maximum IAT = 40 deg C)



8 minutes of harsh driving on the german autobahn:
(grey = speed in km/h, red is IAT in deg C)


the CC is a very effective way to keep the IAT much(!) lower than with any IC. especially in summer you will experience no power degradation anymore. lambda stays way higher (0.77 vs. 0.69, equals AFR 11,3 vs. 9.7) also, gaining some more power. the exhaust tips are much cleaner because of the leaner mixture you may drive. almost no soot anymore. and the engine just lives a lot healthier. thinking about nearly 100 deg C of hot air going into the engine with a normal IC it is obviously that the engine has to be in the danger of knocking/ringing. even if you use 102 octane fuel you will be on the edge.

of course the PA CC is expensive and a hard work to mount. but it really pays off.

[Nev]

Wow, real data ! Thanks CS_

[Pidgeon]

Will somebody point me in the direction of the kit required to capture this data? I can only think of a couple of tracked big power cars running CCs, Sizeten and Dynamo are off to France in the next few weeks (perhaps for higher ambients than we are used to over here )? We'll see what we can do. BTW, shame we weren't invited to your French meeting, which track was this on?

[Tommess]

@cs_: I can always rely on you!

He's the specialist for mounting chargecoolers and Racelogic traction controls!

Will somebody point me in the direction of the kit required to capture this data?

I'm using the DashDAQ XL for datalogging. I have external sensors for exhaust gas temperature and air/fuel ratio (Zeitronix) which can be logged with the DashDAQ. Furthermore you can get all data from OBD like RPM, speed, IAT, spark advance and so on.

Edited by Tommess, 21 July 2011 - 08:18 AM.

[slindborg]

You could DIY a CC kit up but the faff involved means you are probably better off paying for it.

[Andrew aka Stuwy]

Intercooler vs Chargecooler? Chargecooler, it sounds cooler... no science involved but it has a better "ring" to it anyway that my -2p to the topic

[slindborg]

Anywhooooo they are BOTH aftercoolers, but we shant get into that slanging match as it will upset Bob even more

[turbobob]

Damn you guys I don't want to keep getting dragged into this debate. I've said my piece. I've also posted my data. Granted people were asking for speeds and the graph wasn't showing it. For 'legal' reasons, there were 'some' leptons involved. @ Tommess. You are basing your statement on the standard intercooler. I have never once said chargecoolers don't work. What I am saying is that decent efficient intercoolers DO work and are a viable alternative. They are lighter, easier to fit and cheaper. @ slindborg. The cooler sits in between the turbo and the engine. The definition of inter "a prefix occurring in loanwords from Latin, where it meant “between". So it is by definition an intercooler, no?

[slindborg]

@ slindborg. The cooler sits in between the turbo and the engine. The definition of inter "a prefix occurring in loanwords from Latin, where it meant “between". So it is by definition an intercooler, no?

yes and no..... Yes it sits after the compressor, BUT in a single stage boosted system where it goes straight to the Engine its an Aftercooler.
If the cooler was between two compressor stages then yes its an Intercooler as its an intermediate cooling stage.

But since for some reason the marketing bods have called it an Intercooler the term has stuck, much like the whole CANBUS sh** when its just CAN