53 replies to this topic

[Exmantaa]

It buzzes around in several SC topics, but I have no definitive answers on this conversion. Can we summarize some facts of the Z20LET ecu for SC use here? - How far are Courtenay (& Klasen) now? - A testmule running somewhere? - From what stage is it helpfull and when is it really needed? (Harrop?) - etc. etc. thxs

[chrisgold]

It buzzes around in several SC topics, but I have no definitive answers on this conversion. Can we summarize some facts of the Z20LET ecu for SC use here?
- How far are Courtenay (& Klasen) now?
- A testmule running somewhere?
- From what stage is it helpfull and when is it really needed? (Harrop?)
- etc. etc.

thxs

Why bother?

Why not just stick in one of these.

http://www.mtechauto...agement/v4-ecu/

Launch Control
Switchable Maps
Shift Light and Fan Outputs (All programmable)
Stepper-Motor based Idle Support
4 In-built Coil Drivers (No need for external ignitors)
OEM Trigger Support (Ford, GM, Toyota, Renault, Subaru, Rover MEMs to name just a few..)
3D Mappable Boost Control
Coolant based RPM Limits
X-Tau Fueling
CAN Support
USB connections
Complete with loom.

[techieboy]

Because a turbo ECU can be had for less than £100 and supports fly-by-wire and if it only requires minimal work to the OEM NA loom to make it work, why bother with anything else?

[slindborg]

I personally wouldnt bother with the LET ecu as you are still tied to a very limited set of tuners The Mtech update of Megasquirt is ACE, but its still lacking a few refinements that are needed.... well done to them all the same

[Steve B]

When I talked to Courtneys and asked if they'd do an install with a standalone (Solaris or Link G4 or Motec M800 would be my choices) they really were not interested just said the turbo ECU was the way to go for simplicity. I think they like sticking with OEM stuff, I guess for them it makes sense as they don't need to bother learning other ECU systems. Little ECU bit of trivia, the EVO FQ400 if you were to open the ECU box up you'd find a Motec inside.

[slindborg]

No offense to Courtenays/TMS/Regal etc but they know utterly feck all about proper mapping so they wont be interested in fitting a REAL mappable ecu. It matters not what flavour ecu it is as the principles remain the same across the board so the skills are transferrable between aftermarket ecu types

[chrisgold]

No offense to Courtenays/TMS/Regal etc but they know utterly feck all about proper mapping so they wont be interested in fitting a REAL mappable ecu.

It matters not what flavour ecu it is as the principles remain the same across the board so the skills are transferrable between aftermarket ecu types

Exmantaa there are far better ECU's out there than the V4, but with regards to what you get for the price £500, its rite up there!

M-Tech will fit the V-4 for about £200, So £700... and the mapping price you would have to pay regardless.

I may stick one in mine one day... I would quite like a lot of the features.

Edited by chrisgold, 30 September 2010 - 09:16 PM.

[cnrandall]

If people are interested then I will look seriously at offering the solaris ecu as an upgrade but so far I can't see the numbers are there to justify the efforts. Would love to be proven wrong because the solaris is an amazing bit of kit for very sensible money.

[Exmantaa]

Exmantaa there are far better ECU's out there than the V4, but with regards to what you get for the price £500, its rite up there!
M-Tech will fit the V-4 for about £200, So £700... and the mapping price you would have to pay regardless.
I may stick one in mine one day... I would quite like a lot of the features.

Off course there are better ecu's, but everything is a trade off.
Cost, (relative) easy fitment on the 2,2 (ETB !), ECU features (OEM stuff can be pretty advanced), (self) mappability...
But as I don't want to fund the Ecotec research of some tuner, experience with the (SC) 2,2 limitations also is a pré for me.

Edited by Exmantaa, 30 September 2010 - 09:37 PM.

[slindborg]

If people are interested then I will look seriously at offering the solaris ecu as an upgrade but so far I can't see the numbers are there to justify the efforts. Would love to be proven wrong because the solaris is an amazing bit of kit for very sensible money.

is it 'open' (ie can you get the solaris software from them and have a play with the ecu withouth stupid gay ass licence issues etc) ?

[Steve B]

Yes open like most

[techieboy]

I personally wouldnt bother with the LET ecu as you are still tied to a very limited set of tuners

I don't want to be mapping it myself and am more than happy for Courtenay's, who are intimate with every aspect of my car and the SC conversion they did, to do it for me. The Z20LET ECU and it's clones are a totally open book for them and if that's their preferred option, then that's fine with me. I understand the theory behind mapping. But, there's no way I'm blundering in there and totalling another engine because I decide it would be much a better drive if I were to move some easily altered points on a lovely 3D chart without fully understanding the ramifications of that change. The Z20LET ECU seems to be plenty open to other tuners, as well as the usual suspects (and there's software available to do it yourself if desired) but personally I've no interest in tweaking it for the sake of tweaking it, I just want it to run and run well, i.e. an OEM type setup.

Exmantaa there are far better ECU's out there than the V4, but with regards to what you get for the price £500, its rite up there!

M-Tech will fit the V-4 for about £200, So £700... and the mapping price you would have to pay regardless.

I may stick one in mine one day... I would quite like a lot of the features.

Excellent, you've come to lend your expertise again after reading another marketing page on a website. I think we all know there are plenty of better featured aftermarket options out there, as we've been looking at them for years for the Z22SE engine. We'd all love a Solaris or similar ECU in there but when you look at the hidden costs on top of the initial headline outlay, it doesn't compute. Whereas, buying a Corsa ECU and a Corsa loom (I got both for well under a total £100 ), tweaking the wiring slightly and having the ECU flashed is a no-brainer.

Come back and let us know how you get on once that M-Tech ECU is fitted and running and what the real cost was after they've spent a day or two making the loom fit, ripping out the electronic throttle body and your throttle pedal to replace with a cable operated throttle and pedal and deciding they can't interface it totally with the Stack or your immobiliser.

[Exmantaa]

So I'll try to keep this topic back to what is necessary/possible for running the LET ecu on our 2,2's: Loom => which (LET/Z10XE/standard?), what to mod, pin layout maybe? Necessary extra sensors => (T)MAP & MAF spring to mind Crank trigger => needs a 60-2 => available options? Which pick-up sensor used? Ignition => Use modified 2,.2 coilpack? Use a direct coil system (Saab/LSJ head Cam trigger => necessary? (Saab/LSJ head have a cam sensor) ECU => from LET or just buy any M1.5.5 (Z10XE?) and simply reflash for LET use? Tuning => experience with SC-2,2 in vx220 (Courtenay/Klasen). Base map availability to drive to RR? Self tuning / reflashing tools? Immobiliser compatibility => simple re-learn procedure for the OEM stuff? (not necessary but nice to have on a road car..) ???

[techieboy]

Loom = we're not 100% sure yet. Jon Shield has my modified Z12XE/Z22SE loom and he thought it looked about right after Vocky's modifications. Not sure whether he's done much with it as yet but, I think there might be a little race on between two members on here to do the conversion so things will probably speed up a bit now. Alternatively, it's going to need a custom made loom at circa £400. Sensors = Yep, standard Z20LET TMAP sensor. Jon was initially talking about an 80mm Bosch MAF off an Audi but not sure what the state of play is currently - so maybe just a standard Z20LET MAF? Stefan will delete the clutch switch/sensor in the ECU so that's not required, either. Trigger wheel = Z22YH crank or external trigger wheel. NickB777 has an external trigger wheel that WelshJohn on here machined for him. Will need an external crank sensor that is also being donated by a Corsa (I think) of some form - sorry, not sure which. Ignition = Z20LET coil pack. Needs a tiny bit of modification to get the individual coil connectors to fit to the spark plugs and will probably need something to hold it onto the rocker cover to prevent it moving. Stefan will disable cam sensor PID in the ECU. ECU = Z20LET or Z12XE (exactly the same physical Motronic M1.5.5, possibly also Z14XE). Need all of the transponder stuff and probably the key card with it and Courtenay's can then reprogram it as necessary. Tuning = Think initially it's only likely to be a Courtenay/Klasen thing. Stefan is going to come over to do things on the first car "live" (or that's the plan). At that point I guess we'll effectively have a base map. Not sure what the tuning/flashing tools are any more but they're certainly available out there. Immobiliser = Personally, I think they'll be able to match the new ECU to the existing keys and immobiliser but if you get a secondhand ECU, safer to get the keys, ignition barrel transponder and ideally key card.

Edited by techieboy, 01 October 2010 - 07:49 AM.

[Tail slide]

I'd throw my name in hat for circa £2k inc. mapping. Had to go for bespoke dyno-map route on 2 other unrelated cars, which worked fine but took 3 hours to map even with a known base to start from and lambda sensors helping with the part-throttle up to 5k rpm. One was piggyback Unichip, one was TVR MBE unit. Both cars still needed a brief re-run a month later to get fuel mapping quite right for the road, after slight pinking. Both done with experienced & respected tuners. Frustrating that there isn't a fully self-mapping system out there! Local dyno operator points out there's no demand from mainstream engine mfrs for that.

[siztenboots]

saab trionic 7 , 60-2 wheel , completely open and supports fbw. what degree angle is the trigger sensor , ie. how many teeth or degrees before tdc , 117 degrees btdc

[techieboy]

Courtenay's may well know but it's "to be determined", as far as I know. Doesn't the Trionic use CAN or some other proprietary Saab data bus? Maybe that's a later version.

[slindborg]

Matt, I wasnt suggesting you tune the car yourself with an aftermarket ecu, but there are a LOT of epicly skilled people out there who can do aftermarket and not nessecaraly the LET one... but still if it gives the open book that Klassen needs then its good 'enough'. Saabs comms link will still be CAN, just with some stupid layer over it if its changed atall....

[siztenboots]

Courtenay's may well know but it's "to be determined", as far as I know.

Doesn't the Trionic use CAN or some other proprietary Saab data bus? Maybe that's a later version.

yes, but thats no bad thing as you can interface with this much easier and cheaper with a nice in car ITX factor pc setup for live mapping, switchable on track.

http://www.migweb.co...tml#post4281074

[cnrandall]

If people are interested then I will look seriously at offering the solaris ecu as an upgrade but so far I can't see the numbers are there to justify the efforts. Would love to be proven wrong because the solaris is an amazing bit of kit for very sensible money.

is it 'open' (ie can you get the solaris software from them and have a play with the ecu withouth stupid gay ass licence issues etc) ?

Yes - http://www.syvecs.com/