53 replies to this topic

[The Batman]

the mail order map is only to get you to courtenays for final map

[vocky]

Courtenay's are right in sending out a restricted 'mail order' map, if there was a problem due to the mapping the 'finger of blame' would be pointed straight at them, so they are just making sure it's mapped correctly by you having to visit them for the final mapping

Edited by vocky, 17 January 2011 - 01:24 PM.

[14500rpm]

Thanks for your thoughts everyone, I've been to CM before for the timing chain so come the time going up there again won't be a problem, using the standard ECU will save a few pennies too so good news all round Just need to save up for all the other bits now...

[techieboy]

Just need to save up for all the other bits now...

Mere technicalities.

[Muncher]

It's fine up to 300bhp just above this is where the problem lies...

It won't be a cheap solution either I'm afraid

What kind of ballpark are we talking Joe? Assuming the loom can be made and the ECU can be got for not very much, where does all the cost come from?

[The Batman]

Ecu Imobiliser an chips Custom wiring harness Air mass meter Map sensor Porsche throttle body Coil pack Trigger wheel Crank sensor Crank sensor bracket Those are most of the bits that Ican remember of the top of my head I believe Courtenays will be supplying wiring harness's

[Nev]

This is an interesting thread, I have a couple of comments:

1. RC Tuning are evidently a (little known) by capeable tuner for the Z20LET that nobody seems to use on this forum. They have a Z20LET engine + ECU making 610 BHP. They have ball park quoted me £500 to £600 (inc VAT) for a fully dynamic mapping session on my new engine. Fully dynamic means I get to personally determine all the characteristic of the map.

2. I may be wrong, but I don't believe that ordinarily Courtenay's offer a fully dynamic map. This is becuase the base map comes from Germany via email and is relatively 'fixed'. Most 'stage' maps they do are simply a 'carte-blanch' map to which CMS modify 2 things when on the rolling road: fueling and ignition advance. This base + semi dynamic mapping does not take into account smallish differences in mods. For example, one car having the balancer shaft delete kit and lightened flywheel will still recieve the same map as a car without these mods. This means that the specific extra mods of the first car are not taken into account.

This type of mapping is for standard punters who want a relatively cheap map, walk though the doors wanting a 'stage' #1, #2, #3, #4 map and then drive out 4 hours later. I was one of these people 2 years ago but have learnt a bit since then. Courtenay are good at this and turn these maps out at a reasonable cost for the masses, but importantly not to max potential of the engine and not to the specific needs of the driver/style of driving.

I have heard however, that they are willing to request Stephan to make changes to the base map to accomodate changes, but this all take time, done removetly, sending email back and forward. For example, if they map my car and I ask them to lower the boost demand table at 3000, 3500, 4000, 4500 and 5000 revs by 0.1, 0.2, 0.3, 0.2, 0.1 bar (to flatten the torque curve say), this is gonna cause delays (and hence cost). Thus to cut a long story short they are capable of a fully dynamic map, but this is not the meat and bones of their business and will thus be costly (I guess). If I go in there and start expecting to test drive the car and making several small tweaks until I am 100% happy with the characteristics of the car, it is gonna cost...

Edited by Nev, 17 January 2011 - 08:12 PM.

[Muncher]

Doesn't seem too bad

[The Batman]

Sorry Nev but I fail to see how that reply helps us z22 boys out?! Are you saying that rs tuning are going to develop the z20 Ecu for the z22 engine? If so that's great saves me and others alot of time and what sort of costs? If you are just having a about the way Courtenays map there cars then how does this help us? Know one else has been this much involved in the z22 sc Ecu remaps rs tuning tried to map it and couldn't read/failed on the z22 Ecu. Once we have the z20 Ecu conversion complete then yes we could go to rs tuning and get a full dynamic all singing all dancing Ecu remap but until then Courtenays are the best people to use for the z22 sc route

[techieboy]

Stefan is coming over to do the live mapping on the first Z20LET ecu conversion on an SC car. I believe he can also do a "live" map remotely on the Z20LET when it's running on the dyno. The Z20LET ecu is an open book as far as tuners are concerned, so RC Tuning aren't offering something that nobody else can do and indeed there are lots of companies offering that facility around the country. Anyone can buy the software and necessary cables and mess about with that ECU, much like the 3D mapping software I've got for twatting around with the map on the ECU of my Audi (I wouldn't dare go near it though). Z22SE mapping is a bit less advanced with files zipping backwards and forwards as Stefan adjusts the parameters to suit the individual car. In my experience, it has no impact on the cost of the map. Your car may well be in the dyno cell most of the day and have 10 different maps but you're still charged the standard remap fee. Any subsequent changes at a later date are only charged on a dyno time basis (and Jon is usually very fair when it comes to accounting for time).

[Exmantaa]

The trip to Courtenay is my major drawback (from NL). Klasen would be an option, but the Z20LET development route is just taking too long now, so I'm now going the LSJ ecu route for my SC. (And I just like to DIY ) My needed mod list: Ecu => Any '04-'07 LSJ ecu (P12 model) will do + HPTuners program. Imobiliser an chips => VATS can be switched off. (Have to see if it can re-learn our immobiliser) Custom wiring harness => Same. I simplified a US harness (no AC etc.) plug & play for the X2 & X3 connectors. :-) Air mass meter => used LSJ MAF sensor Map sensor => Original LSJ TMAP sensor that fits in manifold Porsche throttle body => original LSJ 68mm TB Coil pack => 4 direct coils from LSJ (maybe similar Saab?) Needs a cam sensor so fitted the LSJ sensor onto my Saab head. Trigger wheel => needs 60-2 sensorwheel (I use the LSJ crank or you can fit an YH 2,2 crank) Crank sensor => LSJ sensor or other. probably 2,2 is different, have to see. Crank sensor bracket => depending on triggerwheel List is almost similar to the Z20LET, but advantage is that with the HP-Tuners program it's really self-tunable and there's a ton of tuning knowledge available on-line. Also their scanner is a very powerfull diagnostic tool. Another possible advantage was pointed out by Alanoo; the knock sensing. Ecotec is a full alu block that might need different knock algorithms than the iron Z20LET engine has. Ignition timing is very important for making good power in an Ecotec and as the LSJ ecu is originally programmed for the Ecotec; that's one possible hurdle less. Plan is to start modding with a 2.0l engine. When that runs fine in the Speedster; more tuning with smaller pulley and later my Harrop with some 60lbs injectors. Also we will mod a 2,2 to run with this ecu.

Edited by Exmantaa, 18 January 2011 - 11:16 AM.

[siztenboots]

in terms of Knock and Cam sensors, the Trionic 7 uses ion sensing in the coil pack for knock and cam sensors. In the Z20NET Ecotec head, its Trionic 8. guess you will want a 90mm air mass meter http://www.horsepowe..._Sensors//10597 or a diy, and just transfer over the sensor to the bigger housing http://www.summitrac...-9705/?rtype=10

[Nev]

Sorry Nev but I fail to see how that reply helps us z22 boys out?!

Are you saying that rs tuning are going to develop the z20 Ecu for the z22 engine? If so that's great saves me and others alot of time and what sort of costs?

If you are just having a about the way Courtenays map there cars then how does this help us?

Know one else has been this much involved in the z22 sc Ecu remaps rs tuning tried to map it and couldn't read/failed on the z22 Ecu. Once we have the z20 Ecu conversion complete then yes we could go to rs tuning and get a full dynamic all singing all dancing Ecu remap but until then Courtenays are the best people to use for the z22 sc route

Joe I was just giving some objective backgound about mapping, not ranting about Courtenay at all. As I said Courtenays offer a good service.

As for tuning a Z22, i have no idea what either Courtenays or RC or indeed any other tuners have to offer. My post was simply to give some general backgound on mapping.

Edited by Nev, 18 January 2011 - 05:21 PM.

[The Batman]

Sorry if I took it the wrong way but it sounded like you where commenting on a completely different subject this is about mapping a z20 ecu on a z22 which hasn't been done yet and courtenays have stepped up to do the job for us Yes rc tuning maybe better at mapping who knows?! But if you went to courtenays and told them exactly what you wanted then they can tell klassen and you will get what you want rc tuning aren't offering a brand new product to the Market