84 replies to this topic

[Crabash]

the gits, I have seen the inside of an ATB before, got one waiting to go in a westfield, would I be right in thinking you are altering the angle on the helix to basicly alter the severity of the biasing, or is it a case of altering/limiting the amount of slip/lock allowed? The idea of a FWD diff being wrong in RWD sound perfectly logical to me BTW.

[cyberman]

Graham Please don't think I'm trying to give you a hard time. If you have something that works really well no one will be more pleased than I. However, there are far too many people selling upgrades to the unsuspecting just by saying "You'll love it" decorated with unsubstantiated technical gobbledegook. They are often wrong in their judgement and not always accurate in their description of benefit. BTW I absolutely do not accuse you of this but there are enough of the other fellows around to make one always a bit cautious. So, anyone who makes a claim about a new product needs questioning to work out whether he really has something up his sleeve or he is just drumming up some business. That is the main purpose of the questions which say "OK, you say its better: fine, but how is it better?" In this case, AIUI your real ATB experience is with the Elise which has I think a different gearbox / dif to the VX and therefore presumably a different Quaife ATB? You may have learnt something very interesting and generalisable from this and be applying it to the VX ATB. But, I don't think you yet have one in a VX. So at the moment your certainty of an excellent outcome is an expectation which awaits confirmation? Now, if you explained the theory (or set out a table / graph comparing the performance of the standard ATB with your new one) then we could all make a judgement - otherwise we will have to wait to try the demonstrator. Which is quite a wait presumably? BTW, the fact you will be having a demonstrator is just excellent and I am sure we are all delighted that you are going to do so. There are other issues. Most people here don't race their VX even though quite a few track them. So whilst an ATB which has the safety characteristics of the standard Quaife AND would help win races would be nice UNLESS its going to be as safe on the road it may not be such a smart idea. Which is why some theory (or graph) helping one to analyse the difference in behaviour would be nice. As to commercial secrecy, which is sometimes necessary, I am not so sure it is important here. You have quite a good franchise from the specialist knowledge involved in implementing an engineering change and the cost of commitment to production. I assume you also have some form of copyright or at least a restrictive contract with Quaife. Anyway I doubt anyone here is minded to set up making ATBs or commissioning 10 from Quaife in competition. Equally there are other ways of dealing with the push out issue; on my car it is not a problem other than at speeds where aerodynamics should be effective. As I already have an ATB that is the route I intend to go. We'll have to see which is the best mix in due course.... Kind regards - Ian

[dude]

the gits: i´ve browsed your site, but didn´t find anything about this new atb lsd. what does it cost and are they for real or just at a test-level?. i´m really in a hurry to get an lsd for my racecar.

[the gits]

We have had several done for Elises (both road, track and race). We are having our first made for a VX customer at the moment, and if successful a batch of ten. I will "eat my hat" if it doesn't work. It's not on our web site, (infact only a small percentage of what we do is on the site, - we are still deciding if the web site should be a product catalogue or not) It's £495 GBP - the same as the normal one.

[dude]

We have had several done for Elises (both road, track and race). We are having our first made for a VX customer at the moment, and if successful a batch of ten. I will "eat my hat" if it doesn't work.

It's not on our web site, (infact only a small percentage of what we do is on the site, - we are still deciding if the web site should be a product catalogue or not)

It's £495 GBP - the same as the normal one.

of course you´re going to put all up on your site

it´s a pain to order catalogues everytime one wants to find parts and it´s not up to date more than 10 seconds from the release .

can you give me a estimate of when it can be up for sale?.

[cyberman]

I spoke to Quaife today to ask about modded ATBs working better in RWD vehicles. They tell me they have had it reported that modified ATBs are better in Caterhams and Elises. Although they understood the mod and what it did to the action of the ATB they seemed unsure as to why it improved car characteristics. They also volunteered they had an order for a special for a VX on the books at this time. I enquired if they could offer support for bulk buys of the current stock and they were quite keen. They immediately offered a 20% discount for multiple units. Regards - Ian

[dude]

time for a groupbuy new thread?. how many is multiple units?

Edited by dude, 02 February 2005 - 03:22 PM.

[the gits]

mmm I won't be posting away our R&D budget on here again... and it goes without saying that the one on order at Quaife is for us.

Edited by the gits, 02 February 2005 - 03:45 PM.

[Ricky2772]

time for a groupbuy
new thread?.

how many is multiple units?

you bastards!!!
...I give you the news, shelling out the fat whole price, and here comes the discount group...

[cyberman]

how many is multiple units?

Well they had 9 in stock and I mentioned that about 5 people were possibly interested. If someone wants to negotiate more firmly with them I would not be surprised if a few more bob weren't forthcoming. I'll help with intros and contacts if thats needed but I'd rather someone else did the buy if one is organised as I'm a bit pushed at the moment.

Ian

[Thorney]

I feel sorry for Graham, Plans put in hard work to develop and sort a system for sale and Cyberman just jumps straight in and undercuts them direct with the manufacturer. I wonder Cyber, I believe you are self employed, whether you would appreciate the same being done to you in your business? I'm all for saving money but also recognise credit where credit is due and if someone has put commercial time into this I'd think it reasonable that they be rewarded with the order. I mean, nothing could stop me approaching Quaife and as representative of this site simply sorting a direct supply, putting the items in the shop and making profit myself - however I'd like to think I'm a little more honorable than that. Graham, I'd still like to buy the LSD from you

[Turbo Head]

I believe the one that Graham has on order is for me and I still intend to purchase this along with quite a few other things from Graham as I appreciate he came up with the idea of modifying the Quaife LSD for our rear wheel drive cars and has put time and effort into R&D.

As a business man myself I feel if a group buy is to be done then it should be done through Plans even if this costs a little more as we wouldn't have this modification if it weren't for Graham..basically I don't feel it is right to stich up Plans.

Another thought might be that if any companies are in a similar position to Plans then they will not be inclined to share their ideas with us, which means we lose out.

This has been an interesting thread and although I can't claim to fully understand the physics, it could be a mod that I would be interested in. If done in conjunction with a set of Nitrons and the Geo set up, I think it would make a massive change to the handling of the car. I agree with Bletch the right way to go about this would be to support Plans as they have done the R&D and it's not right just to come in and snatch the business from under their noses.

[easy]

Been quoted £1,177.36 to have one fitted by Plans If only I had the other £7000 I'd need to have everything else they offer bolted on as well

Edited by easy, 03 February 2005 - 04:31 PM.

[cyberman]

Thorney, Bletch and Turbohead, may I ask how could you be so, err, mistaken? Where have I pinched Graham's business? Graham has commissioned an ATB of a new design from Quaife which will not be for sale (other than in a single instance) for months. I have championed the old design from Quaife for more than a year against strong and even official objections. People are now coming round to the idea that LSDs are the way to go. Others have sought my assistance to contact Quaife and buy a unit. Ricky was the latest instance and it was he who started this thread. I have no commercial interest in this but have argued the cause "pro bono" as I think the LSD a very good thing. Following Ricky's report I commented that Quaife had more of the old design in stock and would probably be open to a group buy at discount as they seemed keen to shift some. "Pro bono" my lads and not against anyone's interest and not in my interest either. The response was enthusiastic. Whether Graham sensed an opportunity, or felt a market might be about to buy elsewhere, or whether he just wanted to let people know something better may be coming, he then chirped up to let us know that he had something on the way. Unfortunately, there have been a number of instances of announcements on here of interesting developments which have either disappointed or not materialised. I, for one, have been waiting on details of the OZ wheels for some time. Accordingly I, and others, have queried Graham about what he had and when it would be ready. Neither of these streams have really had satisfactory answers. In fairness, as Graham was coy about the technology, I thought I would ask about to see if this at least was real. Where better than to start with Quaife who would know if they were making stuff and should know whether it will work as an ATB? They could always tell me to "bugger off" if they had been sworn to secrecy. In fact they spoke as I described earlier: they knew of the theory and they were making one for a VX. They seemed unsure what the effect of the changed design was. They also implied they hadn't started making it yet and if more were ordered it would likely be some months before they were available. I didn't mention this earlier in order to protect those private interests on which you accuse me of trampling. However, Quaife, with whom I have a good relationship and who made the very substantial original investment in developing the ATB, repeated they would be interested to shift some of the old units which they have in stock. Which I have again reported "pro bono". People therefore have an opportunity to buy the current unit now and at a discount or wait for Grahams and pay the standard unit price. Graham offers a comprehensive service including installation and set-up. Quaife do not, they sell parts. Quaife have a product now, which I for one find satisfactory. Graham has a future product which may yet prove to be better. It is a matter for each to consider his own needs when considering whether or not to buy. I should note that at no time did I enquire of Quaife if they could sell Graham's design direct, I assume he has a restrictive agreement with them, and in any event I would have thought it improper to do so in the circumstances. He drinks here doesn't he? I note that a forum such as this serves its members best when each contributes what he knows openly and honestly. I think it unfortunate when some seek to treat a forum as a private commercial fief within which ignorance is best preserved so that the more innocent may be consumed. Anyway, I think your acknowledgement of error would not be inappropriate. Kind regards - Ian Douglass

Edited by cyberman, 03 February 2005 - 06:57 PM.

[Thorney]

Ian, if I treated this forum as a commercial fief as you put it I would have simply deleted your post, so your accusation there is grossly unfair. The situation as I see it is thus: Plans post aboust a special version of an LSD You enquire as to more details Plans are 'cagey' You then approach the manufacturer about doing a bulk buy directly with them of the same unit I (and others) consider that unfair. If you are suggesting that you are speaking about another LSD (ie the stock one Quaife already do) then yes, I have misinterpeted your post, and for which I will happily apologise, however your post is very unclear on this point so you must share some blame in the miscomunication. If you ARE referring to the Plans version then I stand by my comments and no apology is needed. As regards the Oz wheels, I did clearly state that I had details from the manufacturers but until I can verify their accuracey then I will not post them as fact, if this means you wait longer then frankly I'm sorry, but tough, I will not compromise my commercial integrety due to pressure from interested parties. If I say they will weigh 7kg's then I'll weigh them - surely what you want is clarity and honesty - thats what I'm doing.

[dude]

i agree with ian about his pro bono work and i can´t see how this could harm plan as it not the same product. still i would buy a modified lsd from plan if it was for sale and was improving the handling. my choice today is the quaife-version and can i save some money i will. another option is a ramp-type plate-lsd that´s been developed and manufactured here in sweden. but they can´t do a ramp-angle that suits my needs and it´s a bit expensive (1200£)

Edited by dude, 03 February 2005 - 07:56 PM.

[Thorney]

Dude, if Ian is talking about the stock unit then I also agree, no harm in that, however his post is unclear and I and several people misinterpeted it. His comments on personal fief are unfair and downright insulting.

[dude]

Dude, if Ian is talking about the stock unit then I also agree, no harm in that, however his post is unclear and I and several people misinterpeted it.

His comments on personal fief are unfair and downright insulting.

as i´m not english(as you know by now and btw have you praticed the swedish lesson ) and don´t understand everything you´re writing.

i probably didn´t get half of what ian wrote .

[easy]

Guys, Having re read the thread I'm sure Ian is innocent of trying to step on Grahams shoes. He said it was "current" stock that had been offered. I personally have no problem with John using this excellent medium to promote his products as long as others can do the same (which they do) Lets face it if products turn out not to perform as promised we would all find out about it pretty damn soon as some Vauxhall dealers ave found So lets keep the information flowing to everyones advantage We are lucky to have such a good forum for the VX