306 replies to this topic

[Firthy]

The other thing to make this thread clearer: My car has no aero and standard elise trophy spec tyres/ wheel sizes So it's obviously not comparable to Max's car. Max has some aero bigger tyres, different tyres, compound etc. (he would need a different setup) Jimmy was running bigger wheels fronts and rears (I'm running the same spring rate at the rear) Lee's car is a weapon. (Totally different beast) The interesting comparison is to compare my car (same wheels, power etc) with Marks I believe this is Zoo beef. As we represent comparable cars with 2 different setups, he runs harder springs arb full stiff, I run arb full soft and more roll.

Edited by Firthy, 10 October 2015 - 09:21 AM.

[The Batman]

Sorry I'm a bit lost now with this thread, what are you trying to achieve again with this topic?

[Matthew Bentley Racing Ltd]

That lotus drivers are girls

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

@ Matt B I'm off work early next week probably on Tuesday and I'm getting ready to purchase parts for the 4 corner rebuild Will it be ok to give you a call for advice for me to buy the refurb parts and build the car up and then get you to set it up for me If you have discounts on the parts can I buy them of you I'm not bothered at all about road driving I just want the car to be balanced and work the best as possible on track That way I won't hold firthy up in the corners 🙈 Unless it's my driving Will the call be ok next week ? Chris

[Matthew Bentley Racing Ltd]

Course. Mobile is best - 07742 789759 If I don't pick up I'm on the dyno or a car has fallen on top of me and I'm stuck so txt and I will call you back.

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Course. Mobile is best - 07742 789759 If I don't pick up I'm on the dyno or a car has fallen on top of me and I'm stuck so txt and I will call you back.

👍🍻

[The Batman]

Expect a text atleast a week later That's if he likes you

[Captain Vimes]

Sorry I'm a bit lost now with this thread, what are you trying to achieve again with this topic?

We started talking about spring rates for track work and moved into a productive conversation about how the whole car setup needs to work together. We started to find out the opinion of owners about how their car worked with various springs/dampers/camber and arb settings. We seem to have drifted onto a debate about how much lap time is gained from various modifications.. Which might be worth a thread in its own right so we can get back onto car setup?

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Expect a text atleast a week later That's if he likes you

I'm unliked by many

[MAXR]

I think there is more than enough info on Spring rates within this thread. There is only so much that can be said without talking about the overall setup. At the end of the day, you must make a choice & put your trust in your preferred supply/ specialist. Or, perhaps listen to one of the many on here who think their car is setup well. As I have said, I have absolutely no interest in how my car drives on the road. If your car is for road/track then you will ultimately have to compromise. Whatever the advice that has been given in this thread, if you have the ability to drive quickly on track, you should be quick on a soft, medium or a hard setup & on any tyre combination. Scuffer's has that ability, as has been shown on several videos of him in an underpowered or pretty standard car, keeping up with far more powerful / better setup cars. It's good that people are contributing to this thread, however, everyone can't be right, can they?

[The Batman]

Springs are cheap so just buy some and test for yourself, everyone likes different things

[Scuffers]

Springs are cheap so just buy some and test for yourself, everyone likes different things

OK, late to the party as usual!

 

Agree with above, springs are cheap, don't be afraid to play - only thing to remember is that all the dampers will be optimised for a relatively small range, so if you suddenly go from 400 to 1000 Lbs, the dampers will need looking at (that said, your then into who knows what to ask for in valving!)

 

Matt has already said this but it;s worth repeating, ride quality on the road is more about the dampers than the springs, that does not mean 1,000+ springs are a good idea on a road car, but don't be afraid of what you may think are high rates.

 

Talking understeer - most of this is down to setup more than spring-rates per say, however what you need to remember is the stiffer you run the car, the more you can mask the basic geometry issues as the wheels are just not moving as much, so whilst going stiffer seems to work, you are in risk of just hiding the problem rather than actually addressing it, at the cost of ride and traction.

 

Next point, for a given spring rate, you will have an amount of wheel travel, most problems come because people lower the cars without sufficient spring rate to deal with the reduction in wheel travel available because you have just lowered it, this is why a car with what may look like silly high ride heights on a track may well handle and corner far better than it's slammed brother, Gearys red VX is an example of this.

 

Although point (that's also been mentioned) is running soft springs and then adjusting the dampers to go stiffer trying to make up for the lack of spring rate is a good way to making your car undriveable, dampers are not there to make up for lack of spring, the more damping you run, the less feel/grip you will have and the less chance the tyres have to work.

 

Last point, ARB's, I am still of the view that there is no such thing as too stiff an ARB (in the context of what's available) 1" is the min IMHO and I never bother to run them at anything less than full stiff.

 

For absolute spring rates, I would suggest for most people, the setup on Gearys VX is probably right for 99.9% of you, unless your cars much heavier etc.

 

Yes, people go on about different drives styles wanting different setup's etc, but in reality, that's talking about the last 5%, most of us (including me) will never get to that point, a properly setup VX will be good for everybody to drive and should be easy for anybody to jump in and feel at home with, one way I describe this is can you get in the car and drive it one-handed? as in if the steering is good enough not to require you tugging/fighting at it all the time, then it's probably not that far off.

 

Carry on....

[Firthy]

I think there is more than enough info on Spring rates within this thread. There is only so much that can be said without talking about the overall setup. At the end of the day, you must make a choice & put your trust in your preferred supply/ specialist. Or, perhaps listen to one of the many on here who think their car is setup well. As I have said, I have absolutely no interest in how my car drives on the road. If your car is for road/track then you will ultimately have to compromise. Whatever the advice that has been given in this thread, if you have the ability to drive quickly on track, you should be quick on a soft, medium or a hard setup & on any tyre combination. Scuffer's has that ability, as has been shown on several videos of him in an underpowered or pretty standard car, keeping up with far more powerful / better setup cars. It's good that people are contributing to this thread, however, everyone can't be right, can they?

Spot on! I don't know bugger all but I have tried a few setups and ultimately put my faith in someone to provide something that works. I know Matt tailors his setup accordingly to the customer. Softer harder etc. But I would love to try one of his stiffer setups e.g zoo beefs vs a setup to work softer like my car. Just to understand what if any the compromises are. All this assumes the car stays constant. In my head the stiffer the setup the faster the car reacts, not necessarily snappy but it happens a lot faster. As clearly proven it results in much better traction, the cars are as you would expect very kart like. The downsides might be on a bumpy circuit / wet circuit the car might struggle for grip more in the corners due to less roll? Go too hard and you don't generate any roll / grip, plus for the (less handy driver) they are scared to push the car hard at high speed. (It takes longer to trust or they don't have the talent to match the speed the car is reacting) Softer means, for high power inside rear wheel spin, not such an issue for n/a lower ultimate limit of grip if too soft. The upsides being more progressive up to and over the limit (if setup well). Easier to get the car to yaw in as it rolls more. The car should be more compliant on bumpy wet circuits and more feel warning / slower reactions

Edited by Firthy, 11 October 2015 - 09:29 AM.

[haggi961]

Springs are cheap so just buy some and test for yourself, everyone likes different things

Where you finding these cheap springs from? Best I can find so far is £80 plus vat per spring for the Ohlins 😢

[techieboy]

That's the special Öhlins tax. Something to do with the accent on the O, I think.

[Kieran McC]

Demon Tweeks do the Faulkener springs which are cheap they seem to fit most makes of shocks.

[The Batman]

 

Springs are cheap so just buy some and test for yourself, everyone likes different things

OK, late to the party as usual!

 

Agree with above

 

NEW BFF!!

[Crabash]

 

Springs are cheap so just buy some and test for yourself, everyone likes different things

Where you finding these cheap springs from? Best I can find so far is £80 plus vat per spring for the Ohlins 😢

 

 

Yours are the 1.9" ID ?

 

Faulkener springs are very limited in choice at that ID. Max 400 or 450 I believe.

Also if you want Faulkener springs just go to them direct.

[haggi961]

 

Springs are cheap so just buy some and test for yourself, everyone likes different things

Where you finding these cheap springs from? Best I can find so far is £80 plus vat per spring for the Ohlins 😢  

  Yours are the 1.9" ID ?   Faulkener springs are very limited in choice at that ID. Max 400 or 450 I believe. Also if you want Faulkener springs just go to them direct.

Yep 1.9" O/D but the springs on them are a unique size as I've tried a few places and no one does the spring length and width together. Looks like Ohlins made did this for a reason so they can't be changed with other brands.

[chris_uk]

I bet one reason for the understeer is having too much toe out, initial turn in will feel grand but mid corner its going to wash out. If you are experiencing oversteer try altering the lines into the corner rather than getting strung up with setups.. For the record my car has gaz monos with 450/550 spring rates and the standard arb i have nothing else. I dont get understeer only slight oversteer, i change my lines depending on how the car feels. Although, thats not to say i wont benifit from a stiffer arb and higher spring rates. Im currently looking at a 1" arb and singleway quantums. I have a benchmark of 1'34.8 at croft with my old setup so i could give an exact comparison when i get the new stuff on.