109 replies to this topic

[ufods]

Are there any pictures?

[Spitfire Engineering]

 

The larger canister can easily be seen.

I did try to post the output data but there seems to be some issue with the file size even though it isn't!

 

 

 

 pump 1.jpg   180.75KB   7 downloads

[Spitfire Engineering]

Typical Output

Please note the power figures apply to NA i.e .5 BSFC and do not include a margin. We normally suggest at least 20%-25% so for an engine running 3 bar (45psi) you can read 524 x .75 so around the 400bhp.

 

These pumps refill the canister from empty to full in about 5 seconds while at full engine power, in reality a margin of fuel will be returned to the canister via the regulator so this will decrease the fill time to about 4 seconds.

This is far more important than most realise as this is your reserve fuel while in left hand turns and the reason why so many of the DIY (and commercial) Walbro conversions suffer from this issue.

 

 

[sam220T]

Well my pump has lasted another year which is good! Am still really interested on real life feedback on these pumps especially regarding the larger canister and claims of improvement to the fuel starvation.

 

Any feedback would be great from people who have bought and tested on track.

 

Sam

[Spitfire Engineering]

 

Well my pump has lasted another year which is good! Am still really interested on real life feedback on these pumps especially regarding the larger canister and claims of improvement to the fuel starvation.

 

Any feedback would be great from people who have bought and tested on track.

 

Sam

 

 

I'm sure someone will be along Sam ... or just ask one of the aftermarket dealers as they fit the most.

 

The larger canister is only part of the story the refill time is more important as the OE unit takes about 10 seconds minimum, at high power much longer as there is less return  fuel to power the educator pump.

We have sold 180+ to the Elise and VX markets, most go directly to dealers.

 

Only 1 car still has an issue with LH corners, (it had an issue before) this is a VX and had a problem at Anglesey on the double left. That car is coming into Jon Seal's soon for some engine work so I will take the opportunity to see what the issue is if any. We did ask the owner to do some power circles to isolate the issue but we have not heard back to date.

This unit cannot make fuel! if the canister is full before the corner and it runs out before the end of the corner due to consumption then you need a trapped tank so you have more fuel in reserve.

 

Take a look here for the full pump spec and operation.

http://www.spitfiree...-s2-fuel-pumps/

 

 

Gaz

[Acidpopstar]

  Well my pump has lasted another year which is good! Am still really interested on real life feedback on these pumps especially regarding the larger canister and claims of improvement to the fuel starvation.   Any feedback would be great from people who have bought and tested on track.   Sam  

  I'm sure someone will be along Sam ... or just ask one of the aftermarket dealers as they fit the most.   The larger canister is only part of the story the refill time is more important as the OE unit takes about 10 seconds minimum, at high power much longer as there is less return  fuel to power the educator pump. We have sold 180+ to the Elise and VX markets, most go directly to dealers.   Only 1 car still has an issue with LH corners, (it had an issue before) this is a VX and had a problem at Anglesey on the double left. That car is coming into Jon Seal's soon for some engine work so I will take the opportunity to see what the issue is if any. We did ask the owner to do some power circles to isolate the issue but we have not heard back to date. This unit cannot make fuel! if the canister is full before the corner and it runs out before the end of the corner due to consumption then you need a trapped tank so you have more fuel in reserve.   Take a look here for the full pump spec and operation. http://www.spitfiree...-s2-fuel-pumps/     Gaz

Hi, that customer was me! It also happened at Paul Richard and Ledenon this summer. Anything less than half a tank seems to cause issues. I have found it impossible to find anywhere suitable to do power circles so I'm not sure how else to test it other than on track. I also don't know if there are other contributing factors to the fuel starvation. I run a standard tank. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Spitfire Engineering]

Hi Neil

 

Indeed it was you!

Hard to add much since we spoke as I don't have any data to work on, when the car get's to Jon's I'll nip out with Chris and find somewhere to play before the conversion. After that the tank is out anyway so I can take a proper look. Most likely I will swap the pump and bring yours back to workshop for a full test.

We know the pump itself is OK or you would see the issue all the time and not just cornering so it can only be either the canister drain, or simply the capacity is not sufficient. (the refill is a function of the pump itself).

 

One possibility as mentioned to you is the butterfly valve in the bottom may be twisted or have crap lodged in it stopping it from closing and allowing fuel to drain out.

You mentioned on the YouTube video about high consumption and this may be a factor though we have these pumps in loads of cars around this output so it's not an obvious reason.

 

Can you send me details from the other tracks please, time in corner/speeds etc.

Ta

 

Gaz

 

 

 

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

 

The larger canister can easily be seen.

I did try to post the output data but there seems to be some issue with the file size even though it isn't!

 

 

 

pump 1.jpg

 

Hi Gaz 

is the difference in the size of the vx220 canister compared with your ones ??

Edited by CHILL Gone DUTCH, 01 February 2017 - 02:54 PM.

[Spitfire Engineering]

Yes, the one on the left is the new unit, the right is OE.

But there is no comparison in terms of anything else, far more powerful and efficient due to the latest turbine design, they can supply up to 380-400bhp NA depending upon rail and around 340-360 SC (rail+boost) but use less power than the OE units that max out at about 250bhp when new down to 150bhp as they wear.

All the above numbers are dependant upon the rail pressure of course as flow and pressure are needed for any calculation, if you are close to these outputs we will do the sums for you and we also have other pumps which can be swapped into these units for a higher mid range output 50-70psi range.

Beyond that we also have other options.

 

Refill times are 10-15 seconds+ for the OE units and 4-5 seconds with the new while supplying fuel at full power, under this they refill even quicker as return fuel is added.

 

OE ones are obsolete anyway due the potential risk with the old 4 pin connectors.

 

full info is here: -

 

http://www.spitfiree...-s2-fuel-pumps/

 

 

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

I only have a issue on one corner at zandvoort when bel0w 11-12 litres No other fuel issues anywhere else which actually give me any issues I'm sure it's not my pump giving me issues but more likely to be fuel pickup or volume in cannister issues ( standard NA tank ) I did have to mod the standard cannister to get the pump in but was wondering if one of your canisters would fit the pump In your cannister and increasing volume at your the same time.

[Spitfire Engineering]

I only have a issue on one corner at zandvoort when bel0w 11-12 litres No other fuel issues anywhere else which actually give me any issues I'm sure it's not my pump giving me issues but more likely to be fuel pickup or volume in cannister issues ( standard NA tank ) I did have to mod the standard cannister to get the pump in but was wondering if one of your canisters would fit the pump In your cannister and increasing volume at your the same time.

 

HI

Did you install a Walbro into the standard unit?     

 

 

What is the output you are trying to support? and do you know the rail pressure?

 

future plans re output?

 

 

Edited by Spitfire Engineering, 01 February 2017 - 04:06 PM.

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

I only have a issue on one corner at zandvoort when bel0w 11-12 litres No other fuel issues anywhere else which actually give me any issues I'm sure it's not my pump giving me issues but more likely to be fuel pickup or volume in cannister issues ( standard NA tank ) I did have to mod the standard cannister to get the pump in but was wondering if one of your canisters would fit the pump In your cannister and increasing volume at your the same time.

  HI Did you install a Walbro into the standard unit?          What is the output you are trying to support? and do you know the rail pressure?   future plans re output?    

Yes similar to what chrisuk did on his ( probably before your system was around ) I have no extra demand planned due to what my engine can do ATM I'm not sure how much output I currently need just basically kept putting a bigger pump capacity each time I had issues If this helps I run 630cc injectors at approx 80-85% duty cycle at wot

Edited by CHILL Gone DUTCH, 01 February 2017 - 04:15 PM.

[Spitfire Engineering]

 

 

I only have a issue on one corner at zandvoort when bel0w 11-12 litres No other fuel issues anywhere else which actually give me any issues I'm sure it's not my pump giving me issues but more likely to be fuel pickup or volume in cannister issues ( standard NA tank ) I did have to mod the standard cannister to get the pump in but was wondering if one of your canisters would fit the pump In your cannister and increasing volume at your the same time.

  HI Did you install a Walbro into the standard unit?          What is the output you are trying to support? and do you know the rail pressure?   future plans re output?    

Yes similar to what chrisuk did on his ( probably before your system was around ) I have no extra demand planned due to what my engine can do ATM I'm not sure how much output I currently need just basically kept putting a bigger pump capacity each time I had issues If this helps I run 630cc injectors at approx 80-85% at wot

 

 

Indeed!

The problem is the conversion, by just using a larger pump you cause a mismatch with the educator and it's losses efficiency to the point where it doesn't fill the canister correctly.

Other issues with this conversion are overloading the connector on the top, they already melt with the OE pumps which is why they are obsolete so raising the amperage with a Walbro from 6-7A to 12-16A is not smart. They are also noisy.

 

If you need HP fuel for engines over 380bhp up to 600bhp+ these units can be converted but they need to be done correctly with a matching pump and a new connector type etc. see here: - http://www.spitfiree...mp-conversions/

 

For engines which can be supplied with a new HP pump it is the better option as recovery is quicker with a dual input pump rather than an educator driven pump.

 

Chris and Jon use our pumps now for their conversions and service work.

 

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

I measured the current fuel pump current and iscwas nothing like the amperage your suggesting And I'm sure the oem fuse rating of the pump is not being exceeded And you would assume the rating of the fuse will protect the wiring and plugs

Edited by CHILL Gone DUTCH, 01 February 2017 - 04:43 PM.

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

However I do agree it's not the best options as you suggest with the educator and the refilling

[Exmantaa]

I still have issues with this new unit in an OEM tank at that Zandvoort left hander. Running about 350 SC horsies @3.0 bar rail pressure. Hoped the bigger canister would solve this...

[Spitfire Engineering]

I measured the current fuel pump current and iscwas nothing like the amperage your suggesting And I'm sure the oem fuse rating of the pump is not being exceeded And you would assume the rating of the fuse will protect the wiring and plugs

 

The figures are from a Walbro 255 HP

 

 255lph.jpg   37.82KB   4 downloads

 

That will use 12A at 70psi according to Walbro.

What were you seeing? or do you have another pump? what pressure are you at? 4 bar plus 1 bar boost??

The highest pressures we have seen in the VX are the the Saab engines and are using 4.0 + 2.0 boost about 90psi plus a margin of 10psi about a 100psi.

With the walbro 255HP thats about 16A

 

No, the fuse nor anything else will protect you against overheating pins caused by a poor contact unless the two cables touch each other or the live earths out.

The plastic around the pins will melt and may eventually melt the top of the pump and open the tank. This type of connector is obsolete.

This issue is not caused by a high power draw that may be protected by the fuse, this is caused by vibrations loosening a poorly designed connector until it arcs, there is no increase in current draw. The plastic cannot soak the heat away from the pins so they melt the plastic.

I think Chris has an image of a melted top if you ask him.

 

If you check through the pump catalogues you will not find this type of connecter anywhere even for pumps that fit early cars.

The new pumps even come with a warning that the old connector should be removed from the car.

 

 images.jpeg   7.06KB   4 downloads

 

New E85 connector vs 4-pin 4th generation Delphi (VX OE)

Just look at the cross section of the pins!

 

 IMG_5840.jpg   73.36KB   4 downloads

[Spitfire Engineering]

I still have issues with this new unit in an OEM tank at that Zandvoort left hander. Running about 350 SC horsies @3.0 bar rail pressure. Hoped the bigger canister would solve this...

 

Hi

You have a different unit to the one discussed above as we moved over to another design a couple of years ago but if you U2U me I will see what we can do to help.

 

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

im not on a 255 pump anymore im on a GST450-K 

will be honest i never even thought about current of the pump or anything else apart from getting enough fuel to the injectors 

ive just looked at the spec sheet of this pump and it should be running  high current but after speaking to one of your customers about one of yours i put a 15 amp fuse in the pump last year and its never fused 

 

and yes i can see the advantage of the bigger plugs especially if you say there is a known issue with the oem ones going by the pic you posted 

 

im running less boost than most, but not dramatically less 

 

i think we need to keep the fuel around the pick up point 

Edited by CHILL Gone DUTCH, 01 February 2017 - 06:50 PM.

[Exmantaa]

I still have issues with this new unit in an OEM tank at that Zandvoort left hander. Running about 350 SC horsies @3.0 bar rail pressure. Hoped the bigger canister would solve this...

  Hi You have a different unit to the one discussed above as we moved over to another design a couple of years ago but if you U2U me I will see what we can do to help.  

I'm pretty sure I have your latest pump unit with bigger canister and no more educter pump.... (not the older unit with modified pump)