1815 replies to this topic

[casino]

As if a change in PM is going to magically make a difference to the deal. Everything Com Corbyn wants.

[Rosssco]

 

 

Works OK in the USA.

 
The USA has two democratically elected chambers, and differs on many other constitutional frameworks.

 

Not so much any more.  Huge gerrymandering by the Republicans to move electoral borders in order to maintain power.  Add to that the present Republican attempts to change the powers of incoming elected officials in order to prevent them enacting the promises on which they were elected thereby deliberately subverting the will of the people.

 

 

Well yes, but in theory there should be. It throws up an interesting comparison actually, in that people think a non-elected chamber (e.g. HoL) although not very 'democratic' actually (assuming the selection process is done well) avoids the partisanship that you find in systems with elected members.. 

[Rosssco]

The USA is nothing like the EU ie. We don’t hear about how New York has bailed out Texas, so the Texans need to reduce their retirement age and amend their welfare policy to pay back the deficit..

The EU is a collection of individual trading nations each with their own budgets and identities. A USA style model will never work in the EU.

I think this is one of the key problems with the EU - the leaders in Brussels want a United States of Europe but the people don’t. We just want a very close trading relationship with our European friends.

 
Well quite. Despite being derided as morons / racists/ bams etc. many people who voted Brexit were clear that the EU is not a static structure, and the aim of the EU political class IS to create an almost federalist state. Individual states will have some level of economic freedom, but a reduced level of external control over the coming years. Its all there in EU diktat.

 

You just have to take a step back and look at the different stages of integration over the decades (Common market + four freedoms - Eurozone - fiscal and banking union (next, as otherwise the Euro is unsustainable) + tighter fiscal control of member states) 

Edited by Rosssco, 12 December 2018 - 09:14 AM.

[slindborg]

See, now... No one wants to deliver any type of Brexit as its going to be hated by half or all of the country.

 

So, leave Mrs May in charge, let her do what ever it is thats done then a GE will be called and the clowns get to just blame everything on her, or if its gone well ( ) then they take credit.

 

Standard shizzle

[SteveA]

Indeed, rock and a hard place comes to mind.

[casino]

You check out but you can never leave.

[oblomov]

At last - he's pulled his finger out! - Jeremy Corbyn called for MPs to be given the right to trigger a second referendum.

[sford]

The problem with Brexit is not in the should we/shouldn't we; there was a vote and there was a winner. Lies were told by both sides in an effort to win but regardless, there was still a result and I imagine a large amount of those voting had their minds made up before all the campaigning took place. The most harmful part is all the indecision going on. The longer this happens, the more uncertainty there is. Add in a general election and that will delay things even more. 

 

[Crazyfrog (Fab)]

i am £ 65.00 richer as i won't have to apply to stay in uk       thanks Mrs May       

[PaulCP]

Drinks all round on you then at the National 😜😜

Think you might still have to apply though Fab, it’s just the fee that’s been waived

[Crazyfrog (Fab)]

Drinks all round on you then at the National 😜😜

Room is booked but i think i will be abroad😔😔
And yes they will open the platform to apply mid march 😊

[LY_Scott]

 

 

 

Works OK in the USA.

 
The USA has two democratically elected chambers, and differs on many other constitutional frameworks.

 

Not so much any more.  Huge gerrymandering by the Republicans to move electoral borders in order to maintain power.  Add to that the present Republican attempts to change the powers of incoming elected officials in order to prevent them enacting the promises on which they were elected thereby deliberately subverting the will of the people.

 

 

Well yes, but in theory there should be. It throws up an interesting comparison actually, in that people think a non-elected chamber (e.g. HoL) although not very 'democratic' actually (assuming the selection process is done well) avoids the partisanship that you find in systems with elected members.. 

 

 

It doesn't though, hence the tories have been pumping it with tories as it was full of labour when they got into power.

Edited by LY_Scott, 23 January 2019 - 08:58 AM.

[LY_Scott]

Lies were told by both sides 

 

Absolutely false.

 

There are multiple investigations, some criminal into Vote Leave, BeLeave, LeaveEU and Arron Banks.

 

None into Remain.

[SteveA]

At last - he's pulled his finger out! - Jeremy Corbyn called for MPs to be given the right to trigger a second referendum.

 

I was watching an Andrew Marr interview of Tony Blair the other day and Tony was touting for a second referendum. Andrew brought up my point that there is a rising of the far right in Germany, France, Netherlands, Turkey etc. etc. One of the bonuses of Brexit is that it is suppressing the far right. If there were a second vote and it did go the way of remain would that not just see the resurgence and growth of the far right as a massive portion of the population well feel they have been ignored? Which Tony agreed would almost certainly happen.

 

10 years down the line do we really want UKIP in power burning all of our bridges with Europe? At least Mrs May and her lot have some diplomacy.

[slindborg]

The most harmful part is all the indecision going on

 

This!

 

It's the same at work, no one will make a decision, which IMHO is worse than making a decision that means you need to change further down the line.

 

[sford]

 

The most harmful part is all the indecision going on

 

This!

 

It's the same at work, no one will make a decision, which IMHO is worse than making a decision that means you need to change further down the line.

 

 

At the old company I worked for I got so fed up of going to meetings to discuss security/IT/operational problems to see the 'decision maker' go away to think about it and then have no decision the following week, followed by a meeting to discuss the issue further with 'key stakeholders' and still no decision so infuriating that I left. Even got to the point of having a 2 option decision on some data retention issue and they still made a 'decision' to do nothing and not resolve it. 

[Jetpilot]

 

At last - he's pulled his finger out! - Jeremy Corbyn called for MPs to be given the right to trigger a second referendum.

 

I was watching an Andrew Marr interview of Tony Blair the other day and Tony was touting for a second referendum. Andrew brought up my point that there is a rising of the far right in Germany, France, Netherlands, Turkey etc. etc. One of the bonuses of Brexit is that it is suppressing the far right. If there were a second vote and it did go the way of remain would that not just see the resurgence and growth of the far right as a massive portion of the population well feel they have been ignored? Which Tony agreed would almost certainly happen.

 

10 years down the line do we really want UKIP in power burning all of our bridges with Europe? At least Mrs May and her lot have some diplomacy.

 

 

I am of the opinion now that whether the outcome, at some point in the near future we will be leaving the EU, or it will self destruct because of the above before we get the chance, unless of course there is some change within the eu and by that, i dont mean the member states, but the eu commission and their continued agenda towards a single Eu state or united states of eu, army, probable Euro for us and anything else that goes with it.

 

"If" we go to the polls again and remain wins i think there will be a massive divide in the parties and you will end up with pro and non pro eu parties, not so much tory, labour and lib dems + others, lets say a sophisticated ukip or two with some credibility besides just being independent and you can be sure their manifesto will be leaving the Eu. No different to Snp and i would bet my left nut it wont be long before Sturgeon is on her rampage for a 2nd scottish "once in a lifetime again" vote, which is also going to throw up the border question debate if they win this time.

 

So, we might as well just do it now, TM said the other day there is zero point extending article 50 as the options are already there, her deal or no deal, no amount of extra time or negotiations will change that, the eu's position is clear, so lets get on with it and if in a few years we think sh*t that was a bad idea, if the Eu is still there we can go back, bend over and let them aim for penetration.

[jonnyboy]

I think there is certainly a strong case for a referendum. Couple of initial points for those against the idea...We voted to go into Europe. Granted it was in the 70s but you could argue that having the EU referendum undid the "democratic rights" of those that voted in the 70s. The second point is that if/when there is a second vote you are quite free to go out and vote leave again nobody is taking your vote away but the fact is nobody was clear what a bloody mess it would turn out. 

 

I think it would be fair not to split options for leave voters so in effect you would have on the ballot:

 

Remain

Leave on WTC terms 

May's deal or a variant of bokted to an article 50 extension

 

Now people that voted leave wanted to leave the EU and one would assume the customs union as we can then go around the world shaking hands on all of these brilliant trade deals that await us (in exchange for work visas for just different foreign folk). However there is a lot of talk about staying within the customs union which I think a lot of people don't quite understand means that we can't then negotiate trade deals with other countries. 

 

Another thing that I think people don't actually understand properly because as with the whole of the Brexit sh*t show people tend to latch onto a soundbite or something a floppy haired idiot put on a bus and this may be a shocker: Theresa may is 10% CORRECT in what she has done. It's not a very popular opinion as Westminster has become more about power play and less about the public but Theresa May DID negotiate the best possible deal on Brexit. As she correctly said over and over she delivered a deal that got us out of the customs union and allowed us to take control of our borders setting things up rather nicely to have some ongoing trading relationship. If it wasn't for that pesky bit of our land in Ireland! Gah! 

 

Now correct me of I'm wrong here but I don't think anyone at all spotted the NI issue in the run up to the first vote. 

 

So because of NI:

 

You have to have a customs union = we are still essentially in the EU and therefore unable to negotiate our own trade deals which if you weren't just racist that was probably one of the legitimate reasons people thought they were voting for. 

 

You don't have a customs union = If you don't have a customs union you MUST have a hard border...or you let the TRADE negotiations take care of that. This is the crux of May's deal. 

 

It's a total catch 22 but May's deal for those of us that actually have taken time to understand it was that NI is resolved over a period (unspecified) after the March deadline with this backstop being a never realistically to be used legal standpoint. It was a bit of legal jargon that a couple of people leapt on that doesn't really mean very much. 

 

I genuinely think a lot of the MPs in Westminster don't fully understand the Brexit deal it's been hijacked by tribalism. You may guess I'm not a Tory voter but Theresa May is the most honest person in that chamber. She IS right and at the moment bless her she's one of only a minority of people that can see it. What would basically happen with NI is that after exit we can then negotiate the TRADE deal we just have free trade and it removes the need for a border in NI. I would guess then people from the EU would have the automatic right to enter the jurisdiction of NI but would have no rights to work or to travel onto the mainland etc. It's really a quite simple process in the end and the sweet irony is that it's the Brexiteers fighting for the keys for number 10 that killed Brexit. 

 

We won't be leaving in March and hopefully following a second vote not at all! 

 

But the key problem is that people are confusing the trade part of the deal which we can't overtly talk about with them until we leave the EU and the withdrawal framework agreement. There's nothing to prevent uis going back and post negotiating half of the agreement but we have missed the chance to get the ball rolling now. 

[Jetpilot]

If there is another referendum the vote should be nothing more than deal or no deal, we voted to leave, why cant you remoaners accept defeat with good grace!

 

P.s my vote isnt changing and not one single person i know who voted the same has changed their opinion, its just another desperate attempt in "hope" the vote falls to remain because for some reason people cant accept the result, nothing more, nothing less!

 

Who has changed their mind on here?

 

Edited by Jetpilot, 23 January 2019 - 05:36 PM.

[jonnyboy]

Well I'm not a remoaner I'm saying May got the right deal we should just crack on with it but if there's an opportunity to go back for a second vote I'll be crossing everything that we get an in vote for sure.

I think no matter which side of the divide you are on both the whole thing has turned out very differently to what we thought. As I say the customs union is key to this because we may end up in it or in a Norway deal which is even more ludicrous because you still end up with free movement of people.

Really what's been needed is a clearer view of what remain means and what exactly leaving means. We didn't have the information at the time of the vote. It may be that an increased majority for leave comes from a vote but as the actual positions unfold it's clear that in/out with hindsight was never going to be easy and perhaps with the benefit of hindsight it should have always been set up so that in the event of an initial indication to leave the options including a last chance to remain should be put back to a vote after the article 50 negotiations. If any other county goes through the process you can bet they will learn from how its gone here.