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Sc Shake Down - Fuel Pump Advice - Running Hot


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#21 Firthy

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 10:57 AM

Re the pump - I have the Spitfire pump. It works perfectly although the claim that it prevents fuel starvation on long left handers has not proven true, at least for me anyway. I never get coolant temps over 100 deg on track. I believe this may be because I don't have a big charge cooler up front and so air can pass freely over the rad but I could be wrong. I did see it creep up over 100 at Le Luc last summer but it was 40deg in the shade! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Thank you mate that's great to know, do you have the pump that's good for up to 400bhp n/a?

 

To me that looks like the best option, but are there any better? I just want the most reliable unit I can find :) 



#22 smiley

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 11:05 AM

Lot's of people just throw in a walbro 255, before the spitfire option became available. (incl myself) A few reported fuel getting hot by the return dumping in hot fuel back into the tank causing vapor lock. Exact cause/combination unknown yet.

 

From what i get, relative few issues around fuel pumps. Just noisy ones (like the 255) and the plastic connectors in the housing giving up.

 

Before you choose, they key questions are:

- Do you want it to be as quite as the oem? - Do you need a larger capacity pump them oem? (which is near 250isch)  

 


Edited by smiley, 11 July 2017 - 11:09 AM.


#23 Firthy

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 11:19 AM

Lot's of people just throw in a walbro 255, before the spitfire option became available. (incl myself) A few reported fuel getting hot by the return dumping in hot fuel back into the tank causing vapor lock. Exact cause/combination unknown yet.

 

From what i get, relative few issues around fuel pumps. Just noisy ones (like the 255) and the plastic connectors in the housing giving up.

 

Before you choose, they key questions are:

- Do you want it to be as quite as the oem? - Do you need a larger capacity pump them oem? (which is near 250isch)  

 

 

Thanks Smiley 255 option seems like the budget way forward. Not too worried about cost

 

I'd rather replace it with the best possible option for a stage 2 SC - At the moment I think that is the Spitfire as it seems to have a number of additional benefits.

 

The only others I have seen are the OEM Europa fuel pump which I guess is a like for like, I don't care about noise so unless anyone has anything bad to say about the spitfire I'll go for that :)


Edited by Firthy, 11 July 2017 - 11:21 AM.


#24 Acidpopstar

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 11:49 AM

Re the pump - I have the Spitfire pump. It works perfectly although the claim that it prevents fuel starvation on long left handers has not proven true, at least for me anyway. I never get coolant temps over 100 deg on track. I believe this may be because I don't have a big charge cooler up front and so air can pass freely over the rad but I could be wrong. I did see it creep up over 100 at Le Luc last summer but it was 40deg in the shade! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  Thank you mate that's great to know, do you have the pump that's good for up to 400bhp n/a?   To me that looks like the best option, but are there any better? I just want the most reliable unit I can find :) 

I am not sure what BHP the pump is good for but it's the S2 pump. Gary at Spitfire will talk you through the options. It's also just as quiet as the OE one which is important for me. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#25 Exmantaa

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 12:20 PM

That new Spitfire S2 pump unit works perfect in our Harrop SC cars: http://www.spitfiree...-s2-fuel-pumps/

Low amp draw is a big bonus for not heating the fuel at lower loads.

 

We have one Dutch Speedster here with possible fuel vapour lock issues, but he runs an older Spitfire unit. (VX220 pump unit modified with a Spitfire high HP pump for >400HP...)


Edited by Exmantaa, 11 July 2017 - 12:21 PM.


#26 Firthy

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 01:03 PM

That new Spitfire S2 pump unit works perfect in our Harrop SC cars: http://www.spitfiree...-s2-fuel-pumps/

Low amp draw is a big bonus for not heating the fuel at lower loads.

 

We have one Dutch Speedster here with possible fuel vapour lock issues, but he runs an older Spitfire unit. (VX220 pump unit modified with a Spitfire high HP pump for >400HP...)

 

 

Perfect thank you Exmantaa :)



#27 oakmere

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 01:52 PM

Also might be worth trying the redline water wetter (mixes fine with genuine GM coolant) dropped my running temps by 5 degrees C.

#28 fezzasus

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 04:37 PM

That new Spitfire S2 pump unit works perfect in our Harrop SC cars: http://www.spitfiree...-s2-fuel-pumps/

Low amp draw is a big bonus for not heating the fuel at lower loads.

 

We have one Dutch Speedster here with possible fuel vapour lock issues, but he runs an older Spitfire unit. (VX220 pump unit modified with a Spitfire high HP pump for >400HP...)

 

Am swapping to the same unit for the same reason. 



#29 2-20

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 05:55 PM

105 is when the radiator fan switch on with the OEM Ecu.... Hopefully they knew what they did... ?

#30 Captain Vimes

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 09:31 AM

As above, temps seem normal ish for a stg2 with no WI and pro-alloy rad. A gentle lap would always drop my temps quite quickly and you can go again without having to pit. A more permanent solution (for racing) would be WI or supplementary water rad in clean air (front clam cut-out or under crash box with scoop similar to the racing Europa). Or just don't worry. My OEM motorbike has a digital gauge and goes over 110c in the summer, even when I'm just cruising at 40mph in slow moving traffic (especially through the lime house link tunnel).

#31 Spitfire Engineering

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 08:28 AM

Morning

To clarify the options between the pumps the only real factor is output, in real terms that means required pressure and flow. 

There is not really an option as such and they do not overlap, your requirements will decide which you need.

 

If you are planning up to 380-400bhp NA (not likely) or up to 350bhp SC, depending upon pressure, then the new unit covers all you need with all the advantages of a brand new unit, latest turbine design pump, VERY efficient using the same power as OE with a much higher output, very quick canister refill times of around 4-5 seconds even when delivering fuel at max power, quiet, full E85 compatibility including a new heavy duty E85 connector. (the OE Delphi units, along with several hundred other Delphi lines were made obsolete due to the overheating of the terminal block which has melted through the top to expose the fuel, these have all been replaced with a new design but not the Lotus unit which was special order.

We can also fit a wide body pump into this unit that takes you up to 380bhp at 60psi (3 bar rail + 1 bar boost)

 

If you need more fuel than above then the OE units can be converted to order and fitted with a suitable pump for your current and any future requirements.

An important part of the conversion is to change the connector block (as well as all the seals) to to the same design as the new pumps, this ensures E85 compatibility and future proofs the units.

The pumps themselves are also turbine and are selected upon requirement, once this is known the eductor jet is also resized and balanced to give the lowest refill times without effecting the back pressure of the return system. They are quiet, reliable and give a faster canister recharge that OE.

 

We are currently working on a dual channel pulse modulation controller that will allow the fitting of a higher output pump for all conversions which is controlled by an Ecliptech Shift-P2+ progressive display to control maximum output and also switch the pump to a lower output when below a certain RPM. This would cut fuel heating to an absolute minimum but allow complete flexibility over future requirements up to 800bhp+

 

Left hand cornering

A plague on most of the high output VX and Elises, it's caused by the tank design which in car orientation terms is wide (bad) not very high (bad) very short (good). On top of this the pump is positioned at the extreme left hand side but is not trapped, at 1G lateral the fuel will go to one end with the surface at 45 degrees, (imagine you hold the tank at 45 degrees and picture where the fuel would be) not hard to see that even with a lot of fuel in the tank you can still leave the pump unit out of the fuel which is where the canister comes in.

Part of the pump units design is to act as a reservoir for when fuel is not available, all well and good but the size of the canister is limited to what is commercially available, not for Lotus to order a custom fuel pump assembly and to be fair at normal powers 160bhp or so when designed it's not a problem as there is still enough fuel for 20-25 seconds at full power, enough for almost any long left or combination left hander.

 

The problem comes when you increase the fuel requirement as this will reduce the power on time, in the case of SC cars which have a higher BSFC and powers up to 400+ you can see how the available fuel could be down to a few seconds at maximum power. It's unlikely of course you would be at full power all the time but regardless you will always have less time than with a low output engine.

 

The best we can do in terms of pump units is to ensure the canister is always kept as full as possible and to make the canister as large as possible but still fit the OE tank.

Both units are way better than OE for refill times and the new units are also much taller, these go a long way to reducing fuel starvation to a limited number of corners/track the most notable is Zandvoort with it's left, then continuous left all the way up the hill. At +/- 300bhp without a trapped tank you simply will not have enough fuel in reserve without a quick right/left jiggle up the hill to charge the canister.

 

Walbro Conversions

Very good in there day but now not so ideal, we stopped using Walbro years ago as they are of an intermeshing gear type which is inefficient due to the high friction rates and noisy, even the new VHP Walbro is turbine though not suitable for the VX unless you are making 1000bhp! what we try to point out is that it isn't just a case of swapping the pump, a lot of other conversion work needs to be done if you are going to get the advantages and reliability mentioned above.

At the moment we re-convert about 4-5 units a year back from self converted Walbro units which suffer anything from burst rubber tubing, bleed back which means you have to prime the pump a few times, poor recharge as the eductor is no longer matched to the pumps output, and the noise which is a combination of a noisy pump and the eductor jet hitting the pump carcass. In almost all cases the wiring harness has not been completely replaced with suitable cable not to mention the continued use of a obsolete connector which is now taking even more power +5A or so.

Considering the nause of removing the tank/pump and the potential problems of a poor conversion/install it's probably not the best item on the car to save £99 on.

 

:)

 



#32 Spitfire Engineering

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 10:47 AM

Forgot to add the Lotus Europa pump unit mentioned above is the same unit but no longer available for the reasons mentioned.



#33 Firthy

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 02:57 PM

Cheers Gary will be ordering next week been on hols for 2 weeks so wasn't going to be home to collect it. Been reading through an old thread on CC temps where Smiley was asking about the benefits of lifted boot lid, turbo ears etc.... Winstar came out with some very interesting points: "Tubby ears, boot lid, etc will do very little for the engine or CC temps it's a closed system the only way to improve things is to increase the uniformity or volume of air flow thought the rads at the front." "I looked at this for Chris's Europa and the two things that made the most difference where smoothing the flow of the air through the crach box (IIRC he filled it in with expanding foam then cut it out to a curved duct. The other was a small spoiler in front of the bonnet vent which creates an area of low pressure that draws more air flow through the rads." This makes perfect sense to me therefore I thought I would ask if Winstar / anyone else knew the rough: Percentage efficiency improvement you could get by: - Smoothing the flow of air through the crach box to have on its own? - Small spoiler in front of the bonnet vent to have on its own? - Both done together? I know Max has the spoiler but has anyone else tried these mods? The spoiler seems the easiest to do frankly a bit of a no brainer so I will try and get something made up. I packed my rad surround full of foam to stop any air escaping I also used the pro alloy spacers to space the pre rad. So in terms of efficiency gains these seem to be my next steps!

#34 Nev

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 06:40 AM

A Sytek pump is another fuel pump alternative (bought from Glencoe fuel pumps) so long as your fuel demand is modest. I installed one in my car about 8 years ago and not had any problems with it. I only use it as a lifter pump to a swirl pot, but it has worked faultlessly even though I've probably starved it of self lubrication a couple of times by driving with an empty tank.

 

It flows well enough for most power demands. According to my calcs this pump will be safe to around 400 HP on a charged car with average BSFC, leaving a 20% safety margin. So it should be fine for almost all SC'ed and TC'ed VX's.

 

1 Bar = 270 Ltrs/Hr

2 Bar = 255 Ltrs/Hr

3 Bar = 240 Ltrs/Hr

4 Bar = 216 Ltrs/Hr

5 Bar = 174 Ltrs/Hr

6 Bar = 150 Ltrs/Hr

7 Bar = 96 Ltrs/Hr

 

As I remember it was cheap as well, something like £90. It is noisy when running (if that is important to you).

 

http://www.glencoeltd.co.uk/


Edited by Nev, 30 July 2017 - 06:56 AM.


#35 Spitfire Engineering

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 08:17 AM

A Sytek pump is another fuel pump alternative (bought from Glencoe fuel pumps) so long as your fuel demand is modest. I installed one in my car about 8 years ago and not had any problems with it. I only use it as a lifter pump to a swirl pot, but it has worked faultlessly even though I've probably starved it of self lubrication a couple of times by driving with an empty tank.

 

It flows well enough for most power demands. According to my calcs this pump will be safe to around 400 HP on a charged car with average BSFC, leaving a 20% safety margin. So it should be fine for almost all SC'ed and TC'ed VX's.

 

1 Bar = 270 Ltrs/Hr

2 Bar = 255 Ltrs/Hr

3 Bar = 240 Ltrs/Hr

4 Bar = 216 Ltrs/Hr

5 Bar = 174 Ltrs/Hr

6 Bar = 150 Ltrs/Hr

7 Bar = 96 Ltrs/Hr

 

As I remember it was cheap as well, something like £90. It is noisy when running (if that is important to you).

 

http://www.glencoeltd.co.uk/

 

I think you will discover it's just a Walbro 255? If you really want a cheap option let me know, we have a Walbro 255 for £65 or far more suitable pumps for £65 running a turbine and less power draw.

 

We currently re-convert about 4-5 units a year from DIY installs, several bleed back issues, I burst internal pipe, most are noisy and some do not refill correctly (not likely to be an issue with yours as you have a swirl pot)

Surprised you have never had any heating issues with a dual pump setup though? what is the main pump?

 

 

:)



#36 Nev

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 08:40 AM

 

A Sytek pump is another fuel pump alternative (bought from Glencoe fuel pumps) so long as your fuel demand is modest. I installed one in my car about 8 years ago and not had any problems with it. I only use it as a lifter pump to a swirl pot, but it has worked faultlessly even though I've probably starved it of self lubrication a couple of times by driving with an empty tank.

 

It flows well enough for most power demands. According to my calcs this pump will be safe to around 400 HP on a charged car with average BSFC, leaving a 20% safety margin. So it should be fine for almost all SC'ed and TC'ed VX's.

 

1 Bar = 270 Ltrs/Hr

2 Bar = 255 Ltrs/Hr

3 Bar = 240 Ltrs/Hr

4 Bar = 216 Ltrs/Hr

5 Bar = 174 Ltrs/Hr

6 Bar = 150 Ltrs/Hr

7 Bar = 96 Ltrs/Hr

 

As I remember it was cheap as well, something like £90. It is noisy when running (if that is important to you).

 

http://www.glencoeltd.co.uk/

 

I think you will discover it's just a Walbro 255? If you really want a cheap option let me know, we have a Walbro 255 for £65 or far more suitable pumps for £65 running a turbine and less power draw.

 

We currently re-convert about 4-5 units a year from DIY installs, several bleed back issues, I burst internal pipe, most are noisy and some do not refill correctly (not likely to be an issue with yours as you have a swirl pot)

Surprised you have never had any heating issues with a dual pump setup though? what is the main pump?

 

 

:)

 

 

Yep, maybe my Sytek pump is just a rebranded Walboro, I can't remember that far back.

 

Bosch 044 is my power pump.

 

My system is thoughtfully setup which is why I have no problems. 2 pump, 2 filters, a proper swirl pot (that actually swirls), few tight bends on the hoses, large dia hoses, short hose runs, fat power supply wires, good earthing, sacrificial mounts (within the "safety" cell of the chassis).

 

I was slightly concerned about using the in tank pump as a lifter pump only, but as the swirl pot is pressurised considerably by the return line I figured it would be ok and not over-speed.

 


Edited by Nev, 30 July 2017 - 08:48 AM.


#37 Spitfire Engineering

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 08:06 PM

What power are you making?

 

Have you ever checked the swirl pot temp?

 

:)

Gaz

 

 

 

 

 

A Sytek pump is another fuel pump alternative (bought from Glencoe fuel pumps) so long as your fuel demand is modest. I installed one in my car about 8 years ago and not had any problems with it. I only use it as a lifter pump to a swirl pot, but it has worked faultlessly even though I've probably starved it of self lubrication a couple of times by driving with an empty tank.

 

It flows well enough for most power demands. According to my calcs this pump will be safe to around 400 HP on a charged car with average BSFC, leaving a 20% safety margin. So it should be fine for almost all SC'ed and TC'ed VX's.

 

1 Bar = 270 Ltrs/Hr

2 Bar = 255 Ltrs/Hr

3 Bar = 240 Ltrs/Hr

4 Bar = 216 Ltrs/Hr

5 Bar = 174 Ltrs/Hr

6 Bar = 150 Ltrs/Hr

7 Bar = 96 Ltrs/Hr

 

As I remember it was cheap as well, something like £90. It is noisy when running (if that is important to you).

 

http://www.glencoeltd.co.uk/

 

I think you will discover it's just a Walbro 255? If you really want a cheap option let me know, we have a Walbro 255 for £65 or far more suitable pumps for £65 running a turbine and less power draw.

 

We currently re-convert about 4-5 units a year from DIY installs, several bleed back issues, I burst internal pipe, most are noisy and some do not refill correctly (not likely to be an issue with yours as you have a swirl pot)

Surprised you have never had any heating issues with a dual pump setup though? what is the main pump?

 

 

:)

 

 

Yep, maybe my Sytek pump is just a rebranded Walboro, I can't remember that far back.

 

Bosch 044 is my power pump.

 

My system is thoughtfully setup which is why I have no problems. 2 pump, 2 filters, a proper swirl pot (that actually swirls), few tight bends on the hoses, large dia hoses, short hose runs, fat power supply wires, good earthing, sacrificial mounts (within the "safety" cell of the chassis).

 

I was slightly concerned about using the in tank pump as a lifter pump only, but as the swirl pot is pressurised considerably by the return line I figured it would be ok and not over-speed.

 

 

 



#38 JG

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 09:05 PM

Fuel pump. I'd get a standard lotus one if i were you, they are fine for stage 2 and much better built than anyone else. They are quiet too.

 

I'm not convinced with triple passing. you want to take as much energy out and that requires a hot rad. 

 

Also, i'd take one of the fans off, I keep meaning to do it. 

 

104 is pretty hot, i got to 99 at Pembrey on a hot(ish) day. 



#39 pete-r

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 12:04 AM

I fitted a systek supplied by courtenay which was DOA, and they replaced it with a walbro which lasted less than a few months. To my eyes they were identical without opening them up. Bought an oem pump for a bargain price with a free fuel tank from the lotus auction site and fingers crossed so far so good. If and when it breaks I'd fit the spitfire for a fit and forget option.

Edited by pete-r, 31 July 2017 - 12:04 AM.


#40 Spitfire Engineering

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 12:55 AM

Fuel pump. I'd get a standard lotus one if i were you, they are fine for stage 2 and much better built than anyone else. They are quiet too.

 

 

Not too sure JG why you consider this the case?

For a start you cannot get a standard Lotus/VX unit one as they were made obsolete by the manufacturer (Delphi) as the 4-pin terminal block has a habit of melting, all of Delphi's 4-pin connectors have been withdrawn and replaced. If you did manage to find a new one on the shelf somewhere it's worth remembering it's been on the shelf for over 25 years and is not E85 compatible anyway which will become a problem in the not too distant future along with several other components in the fuelling system.

 

They are not a great design anyway for use in the Elise/VX, (ignoring the safety issues) the canister is quite small and the canister refill is educator powered which is slower and conditional upon return flow/pressure parameters. (this is also the reason why some of the DIY Walbro conversions have problems) 

 

By comparison the new HP units are far more powerful, they can support up to 400bhp NA and 360bhp SC, both depending upon the pressure requirements, yet use less power due to the efficiency of the latest turbine architecture, they are just as quiet and have a much quicker refill time of about 4 seconds which is carried out by the pump itself not the return fuel, this allows for an almost instantaneous recovery after running dry.

The canister is larger, they are fully E85 compliant, very well built and have a full warranty. They seal better and the new sender arms we supply with them do not snag on the ProAlloy tanks either unlike the OE units. They also have a vapour sensor which can be utilised if need be.

 

I cannot think of a single comparison point where the original Delphi pump is superior, aesthetics maybe? the new HP units are even cheaper than the OE units were the last time they were available.

 

http://www.spitfiree...-s2-fuel-pumps/

 

If you were referring to converted units? then that is a different comparison but not really relevant as these units can supply engines way beyond what the OE units could support even when brand new, up to 800bhp, these are also just as quiet by the way and the safety issues have been negated by a new connector block. They refill much quicker than the OE ones due to the higher return fuel flow plus the correct eductor jet sizing These units are also fully E85 compliant as we replace all the seals with the correct Viton specification. These are also offered with a full warranty.

 

http://www.spitfiree...mp-conversions/

 

 

:)






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