29 replies to this topic

[leevx2.2]

I get to 110 and above sometimes on track 

[Mattias]

 

I believe the fault lies with the cc radiator restricting airflow but I will definitely check the cap, coolant level, bleed the system before investing anything more. It seems highly likely that a poor bleed after the cc install could be the source.

That's an internet myth on the whole... loads of us have a CC rad and Pro-alloy water rad like you and don't get any water temp problems so long as the car is moving over about 30 MPH.

The CC cooler rad might cause a couple of extra degrees difference, but not 30!

By virtue of the fact that your car engine still works, I'd guess that your reading is incorrectly high (ie either sensor or display device).

 

 

I wouldn't say it's a myth at all, just different driving style, track, conditions etc.

 

As long as the cooling system can take care of the same kW of heat released we are fine. And for that to work we need air flow, water flow, correct size of cooler and a sufficient temp diff for the size and flows.

 

The problem with the CC in front is not only restriction in airflow, the big difference is the change in temp diff which directly correlates with the efficiency of the cooler.

 

So let's say you have high load more or less constantly on a tight track an when you don't have load ie braking in to a corner you are also going slow with reduced air flow. With this load let's say you have 60deg IAT pre CC and 30deg after. That 30deg drop ends up as lower temp diff for the engine radiator and if it can't get rid of the heat release. The temp will rise until load/heat release is lowered. As you can understand these conditions isn't a problem for a street driven car and probably not bigger tracks where you are at high speed and medium load in fast corners etc.

 

One must also consider the air temp above the tarmac and released from other cars it's probably not uncommon that the radiator sees 50deg air temp on a hot day and then add the heat release from the CC on that.

 

My 120deg overheating problems started right after I fitted the CC, on push laps I could get it to 120degC in just a few minutes even when I had the VXR turbo.

Now I use a big oil cooler in the ear, electric PWM controlled 400w water pump based on fuel flow ie load/rpm and temp so I can have max water flow at any speed as well as the cooling becomes predictive. On top of that I control my fans with PWM. 

With this setup I can do push laps on same track as before and hot conditions and 450+hp and still keep it under 100deg. On a day with below 20deg ambient it keeps close to 90degC

 

I also run Evans coolant even though it has worse heat transfer than water it has a couple of important benefits. One is it doesn't boil until 180deg this in turn stops steam pockets and local boiling in the cylinder head on high temps that otherwise reduce cooling and can cause very high temp locally around the combustion chamber. It also means you can run hot without loosing the cooling and spill all your coolant on the track.

 

I believe putting two wheelhouse radiators instead of the ProAlloy would also solve any overheating problems. That is how we do it in OEM applications when the heat release is to large.

[Mattias]

It's also important to understand that the oil cooler thermostat probably starts to open at around 100-110deg and it is fully open at 127deg. And this heat is released right in to the engine, that is why an air oil cooler is a good idea.

Also the heater circuit also sends the hot water out of the block and right back in without cooling. So fitting a valve to that circuit also helps but then the sensor need to be relocated to eg the thermostat housing.

[Nev]

Hmmm, I appreciate/understand what you're saying Mattias. Perhaps the critical difference is that we rarely see 30+ degree ambient in the UK. Most of the time (even in summer) the ambient temps are only around 22 degrees +/-5 degrees.

Edited by Nev, 02 June 2018 - 11:59 AM.

[Captain Vimes]

Nev - there’s plenty of UK trackers with the pro-alloy CC that seem to have water temp issues on hot track days. Seems to affect SC cars more than turbo??

Mattias - could you share more details on what you’ve done to your setup to control track temps? And whether you did them both together or one at a time? It would be useful to know if the oil cooler or water pump was the critical factor.

For the oil rad, have you added ducting, fan etc or just mounted and added a thermostat? Does it still use the oil/water cooler as well?

[Mattias]

Nev - there’s plenty of UK trackers with the pro-alloy CC that seem to have water temp issues on hot track days. Seems to affect SC cars more than turbo??

Mattias - could you share more details on what you’ve done to your setup to control track temps? And whether you did them both together or one at a time? It would be useful to know if the oil cooler or water pump was the critical factor.

For the oil rad, have you added ducting, fan etc or just mounted and added a thermostat? Does it still use the oil/water cooler as well?

 

Check my previous posts here: http://www.vx220.org...-on-oil-cooler/

 

In theory the oil cooler shouldn't do any difference before the OEM oil thermostat opens at 107C but after that, removing oem cooler and adding air cooler will keep the temps from spiraling out of control. Adding more coolers will always help, more power = more cooling

I have a small spal fan on the cooler but it's only on if needed.

 

The water pump and fan control is a way of using the available cooling capability to it's maximum and to be able to just shut the engine off in the pits and let the pump and fans cool the engine and turbo before the ecu turns off.

[speedster norway]

 

Nev - there’s plenty of UK trackers with the pro-alloy CC that seem to have water temp issues on hot track days. Seems to affect SC cars more than turbo??

Mattias - could you share more details on what you’ve done to your setup to control track temps? And whether you did them both together or one at a time? It would be useful to know if the oil cooler or water pump was the critical factor.

For the oil rad, have you added ducting, fan etc or just mounted and added a thermostat? Does it still use the oil/water cooler as well?

 

Check my previous posts here: http://www.vx220.org...-on-oil-cooler/

 

In theory the oil cooler shouldn't do any difference before the OEM oil thermostat opens at 107C but after that, removing oem cooler and adding air cooler will keep the temps from spiraling out of control. Adding more coolers will always help, more power = more cooling

I have a small spal fan on the cooler but it's only on if needed.

 

The water pump and fan control is a way of using the available cooling capability to it's maximum and to be able to just shut the engine off in the pits and let the pump and fans cool the engine and turbo before the ecu turns off.

 

Hi
interesting, but can I ask what you do not like about Dave's Craigh pumps?
Have used this for several years.
And by removing the "impeller" on the original pump and removing the thermostat and using a small electric pump on the circuit of the heater (operated manually over a switch), I can use the David Craigh controller to select which temp I wish as this controls both pump and fan, and cooling down  after the engine is stopped.
When it comes to oil, I let it first circulate to an "oil to air" cooler so to go to the "oil to water" cooler with no thermostat in the circuitt.
After this I have never had problems with the oil and water temp.

​This applies to a moderately modified 2.2 na.

And yes I had trouble with high temp on oil and water before at trackday on hot days.

[BadCop]

Also get 105 C on the track when flooring 400 bhp over 20 min.

Before installing the CC prerad ist was 85 C max.

There are two effects - the Air entering the water rad is warmer AND slower.

More restriction - fewer airflow.

But it works for me as the IAT Dropped to 45C max and 105 C engine is just fine for 10W60 oil

[Mattias]

 

 

Nev - there’s plenty of UK trackers with the pro-alloy CC that seem to have water temp issues on hot track days. Seems to affect SC cars more than turbo??

Mattias - could you share more details on what you’ve done to your setup to control track temps? And whether you did them both together or one at a time? It would be useful to know if the oil cooler or water pump was the critical factor.

For the oil rad, have you added ducting, fan etc or just mounted and added a thermostat? Does it still use the oil/water cooler as well?

 

Check my previous posts here: http://www.vx220.org...-on-oil-cooler/

 

In theory the oil cooler shouldn't do any difference before the OEM oil thermostat opens at 107C but after that, removing oem cooler and adding air cooler will keep the temps from spiraling out of control. Adding more coolers will always help, more power = more cooling

I have a small spal fan on the cooler but it's only on if needed.

 

The water pump and fan control is a way of using the available cooling capability to it's maximum and to be able to just shut the engine off in the pits and let the pump and fans cool the engine and turbo before the ecu turns off.

 

Hi
interesting, but can I ask what you do not like about Dave's Craigh pumps?
Have used this for several years.
And by removing the "impeller" on the original pump and removing the thermostat and using a small electric pump on the circuit of the heater (operated manually over a switch), I can use the David Craigh controller to select which temp I wish as this controls both pump and fan, and cooling down  after the engine is stopped.
When it comes to oil, I let it first circulate to an "oil to air" cooler so to go to the "oil to water" cooler with no thermostat in the circuitt.
After this I have never had problems with the oil and water temp.

​This applies to a moderately modified 2.2 na.

And yes I had trouble with high temp on oil and water before at trackday on hot days.

 

 

This is just my opinion and some facts also: What they have done it to take a fan motor and stick it on a pump and it's a very simple construction with a seal that can leak into the motor. I believe fan motors aren't meant to run as a pump motor and you can see this in the way they control it on medium temps, on for a period and then off and so on. In theory this will make the head stretch and shrink but without measuring the temp in the bridge between exhaust valves there is no way of knowing if it's enough to create cracks in the long run. Probably not but it would be better to run the pump with pwm to control rpm.

I wanted to run my EWP80 with a pwm fan-relay controlled from my ECU, and asked them for a suitable frequency but they had no answer other than that all warranties was not valid if I did that, same with running evans coolant.

They also stated the life time only at 80degC and the curve for that is exponential when temps go up.

I just think it's expensive for a simple pump and I wouldn't dare run it other than as an extra pump and for after cooling as you do.

 

The Pierburg CWA400 is a wet running pump with water cooled electronics so no seals and made to live the lifespan of a normal car. At Volvo we use it for the 367hp Polestar engine as an example and BMW also use it. The BMW version has normal hose connections so that is good. It also features electric safety functions eg. if jammed it tries to free the impeller and if the signal is broken it runs in a defined rpm instead of shutting off.

I control it with my ECU and a 3D table that outputs a 5v pwm signal. I've also seen this stand alone controller for it: https://tecomotive.c...omotive-tinycwa

 

It's also possible to rotate the pump volute to any suitable angle if a little tab is removed with a dremel.

 

For safety I added a current sensor so I get a warning in my AIM dash if it doesn't run so I can shut down the engine or let my ECU go into limp and then shut down.

 

The reason I removed the water to oil cooler was to minimize restriction/pressure drop in both circuits. 

But with your layout with no oil thermostat it's good to let it pass the water to oil cooler since it will warm up the oil if it's cooled to much in normal street driving. 

[speedster norway]

 

 

 

Nev - there’s plenty of UK trackers with the pro-alloy CC that seem to have water temp issues on hot track days. Seems to affect SC cars more than turbo??

Mattias - could you share more details on what you’ve done to your setup to control track temps? And whether you did them both together or one at a time? It would be useful to know if the oil cooler or water pump was the critical factor.

For the oil rad, have you added ducting, fan etc or just mounted and added a thermostat? Does it still use the oil/water cooler as well?

 

Check my previous posts here: http://www.vx220.org...-on-oil-cooler/

 

In theory the oil cooler shouldn't do any difference before the OEM oil thermostat opens at 107C but after that, removing oem cooler and adding air cooler will keep the temps from spiraling out of control. Adding more coolers will always help, more power = more cooling

I have a small spal fan on the cooler but it's only on if needed.

 

The water pump and fan control is a way of using the available cooling capability to it's maximum and to be able to just shut the engine off in the pits and let the pump and fans cool the engine and turbo before the ecu turns off.

 

Hi
interesting, but can I ask what you do not like about Dave's Craigh pumps?
Have used this for several years.
And by removing the "impeller" on the original pump and removing the thermostat and using a small electric pump on the circuit of the heater (operated manually over a switch), I can use the David Craigh controller to select which temp I wish as this controls both pump and fan, and cooling down  after the engine is stopped.
When it comes to oil, I let it first circulate to an "oil to air" cooler so to go to the "oil to water" cooler with no thermostat in the circuitt.
After this I have never had problems with the oil and water temp.

​This applies to a moderately modified 2.2 na.

And yes I had trouble with high temp on oil and water before at trackday on hot days.

 

 

This is just my opinion and some facts also: What they have done it to take a fan motor and stick it on a pump and it's a very simple construction with a seal that can leak into the motor. I believe fan motors aren't meant to run as a pump motor and you can see this in the way they control it on medium temps, on for a period and then off and so on. In theory this will make the head stretch and shrink but without measuring the temp in the bridge between exhaust valves there is no way of knowing if it's enough to create cracks in the long run. Probably not but it would be better to run the pump with pwm to control rpm.

I wanted to run my EWP80 with a pwm fan-relay controlled from my ECU, and asked them for a suitable frequency but they had no answer other than that all warranties was not valid if I did that, same with running evans coolant.

They also stated the life time only at 80degC and the curve for that is exponential when temps go up.

I just think it's expensive for a simple pump and I wouldn't dare run it other than as an extra pump and for after cooling as you do.

 

The Pierburg CWA400 is a wet running pump with water cooled electronics so no seals and made to live the lifespan of a normal car. At Volvo we use it for the 367hp Polestar engine as an example and BMW also use it. The BMW version has normal hose connections so that is good. It also features electric safety functions eg. if jammed it tries to free the impeller and if the signal is broken it runs in a defined rpm instead of shutting off.

I control it with my ECU and a 3D table that outputs a 5v pwm signal. I've also seen this stand alone controller for it: https://tecomotive.c...omotive-tinycwa

 

It's also possible to rotate the pump volute to any suitable angle if a little tab is removed with a dremel.

 

For safety I added a current sensor so I get a warning in my AIM dash if it doesn't run so I can shut down the engine or let my ECU go into limp and then shut down.

 

The reason I removed the water to oil cooler was to minimize restriction/pressure drop in both circuits. 

But with your layout with no oil thermostat it's good to let it pass the water to oil cooler since it will warm up the oil if it's cooled to much in normal street driving. 

 

Thank you for a complementary explanation and I can agree with you.
But when I rebuilt my cooling system in 2012, all recommendations a David Craigh system were what worked, and since then it worked out fine for me.
And when it comes to the oil I tried a thermostat and a big cooler in "Turbo ear with ducting" but this was not enough quickly reached a temperature of 150C on track, and without a thermostat it became too cold for normal street driving, so to let a water cooler after the air cooler be a thermostat has worked well.