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Z22Se Chain Guide - Waterpump Short Chain


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#1 blackoctagon

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 11:26 AM

I prefer to present 'built' rather than 'build', but I thought this may interest someone and i've overexcited myself:
6081ef1369828485.jpg
*click for bigger*

The engine is on the bench (deck to bench) so the weird look is because the photo has been rotated.
The guide is based on the GM Performance part.

The chain is painted as I was counting the links. If you are making your own short chain then you need 52 links.
Please note the tensioner is not engaged, hence slack on the tensioner side.

This is just a rapid prototype, so the material is whatever plastic a £150 3D printer uses.
The real material will be a polyamide.

Edited by blackoctagon, 12 February 2021 - 11:27 AM.


#2 FLD

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 11:33 AM

Nice job!



#3 Foxy_Jr

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 03:19 PM

Might be a numpty question, but is this so you can completely remove the balancer gears and associated chain?

Cheers

#4 TheHood

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 05:09 PM

That looks great.

If economy of scale helps you with the cost of the final part I would be interested in one.

#5 blackoctagon

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 10:23 PM

Foxy,
Yes, it removes th eneed for the balancer shafts (or their cut down versions), but the balancer chain is the water pump chain, so you need the shorter 52 link one.
Weight is saved and rotating inertia.


TheHood,
I had anticipated people may want one of their own. I have already put the design out to a few plastic component batch manufacturers locally asking for an initial 10 units - 3 for me and some for Ecotec friends in the US.
As of now I have not had pricing back but i'll earmark one of the 10 given that you asked - no obligation, just first refusal.

#6 border

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Posted 13 February 2021 - 08:57 AM

Were you not tempted to remove the chain-driven pump entirely and go for an EWP instead?

That's a genuine question and I'm keen to hear your logic if EWPs are an alternative you've discounted - I'm not trying to pick holes in your approach!

#7 2-20

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Posted 13 February 2021 - 01:09 PM

Foxy,
Yes, it removes th eneed for the balancer shafts (or their cut down versions), but the balancer chain is the water pump chain, so you need the shorter 52 link one.
Weight is saved and rotating inertia.


TheHood,
I had anticipated people may want one of their own. I have already put the design out to a few plastic component batch manufacturers locally asking for an initial 10 units - 3 for me and some for Ecotec friends in the US.
As of now I have not had pricing back but i'll earmark one of the 10 given that you asked - no obligation, just first refusal.


Nice project,
I m interested too to be in the list for next refusal...
Thanks

#8 blackoctagon

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Posted 13 February 2021 - 05:01 PM

Border,
I discounted it solely on the grounds that i'm putting a lot of new things into this particular engine.
An EWP needs calibrated and i'm already in at the PCM and a piggyback for something else i'm putting on this particular engine.

The engine that comes out of the car will be rebuilt and that will be the EWP engine - there too many lessons and unknowns on this engine.

From the short reseach I did I consider the BMW 1 series Pierburg pump and a standalone controller as my best solution, instead of a unit like the Davies Craig, but for now i'll accept the mechanical one's loss vs. being a known quantity.

2-20,
You have second, no obligation, refusal after TheHood. The others were claimed between his post and me reading yours.



To anyone else who may ask:
I'm not advese to asking for a bigger batch, but I need guideline pricing from the manufacturers before i'd start opening up - I don't know if we're talking £10, 20, 40, 80, 160, 320 per part right now, and I know what its worth to me and the Americans, but it may be stupid in the end.

Edited by blackoctagon, 13 February 2021 - 05:01 PM.


#9 Exmantaa

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Posted 14 February 2021 - 11:35 AM

Hmm, I have such a "short chaine" guide piece in the right Polyamide stuff from someone who made-up a smal batch years ago.

Never used it, as I'm still happy with my fully balanced engine and the main problem then was the short chain...

 

Will have a search where I have it. :happy:



#10 blackoctagon

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 12:23 PM

I have had a price back from the manufacturers for the parts.

It's £52.25 + VAT each. Postage would be about £4 in the UK and i'm i'm not making penny on any that. So thats £66.70 in the UK per guide.
Europe and US would be more on the postage.

Thats in the good material - PA4.6 - which is more temperature resistant than the OEM guide material. The cost is in the batch work so using PA66 saves pennies.

I'm going to go ahead with a bigger batch so there are now 6 available - TheHood and 2-20 have first refusal on another two, so if they pass there will be a total 8 available.

If anyone wants one then now is the time to ask.
I will put the extras on ebay if no .org members want the remainder - i'll keep it open for a few weeks - although I expect a few more will be wanted for the US.

#11 ayresyy

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Posted 17 February 2021 - 08:03 AM

 Could you also put me on the list for one please.



#12 blackoctagon

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Posted 17 February 2021 - 06:23 PM

Ayresyy,
If you are happy with the £66.70 (posted) then, yes, i'll put your name against one.

Running tally:
TheHood - in principle
2-20 - in principle
Ayresyy - in principle.

I've named mine, the Cobalt crew have named theirs, and there are 5 slots available still, pending cancellations from the above.

#13 Exmantaa

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Posted 17 February 2021 - 07:23 PM

Good price.

 

Some details how you solved your short chain?



#14 blackoctagon

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Posted 17 February 2021 - 11:01 PM

The chain you see in the photo is a shortened GM chain, the same way GM did it for the racers.
In their customer kits they supplied a new, correct length chain from their supplier.

I took the GM chain and just used a chain splitting tool to shorten it. It's just like a motorbike or bike chain - remove links and then re-insert the removed pin and peen it over to re-form the rivet. You can read this on any mountain bike or motorbike site about chains.

The standard balancer GM chain is (from memory) 75 links and it needs to be 52 for this modification, so you count the links, split the chain at two points, leaving 52 links and then close the chain back up.
You can grind a pin (carefully) and just throw it away, but you'll need to press the other pin out because you'll need it again.

I've seen your work and you'd do this easily.

You can buy chains made to length (an example https://www.bearings...s/roller-chain/ )- there is nothing special or sophisticated about the GM chain.
I have not made any measurements as it was more pleasing to buy the splitter kit and keep the tool. I'd anticipate anyone else doing this modification would buy a kit too.


I have a new SAAB kit here so i'll be making a new short chain from the new balancer chain. You are welcome to the short chain in the picture if it will help you.

Edited by blackoctagon, 17 February 2021 - 11:04 PM.


#15 blackoctagon

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 11:16 AM

I have had a two more manufacturers quote for the parts:

The best one is £47.25 + VAT , so assuming a £4 post in the UK thats down to £60.70 now.

#16 AMOSS

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 01:18 PM

When you remove the balance shafts, do uou still need to insert anything into the holes? Are there any oilways that will need blanking off.

#17 blackoctagon

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Posted 21 February 2021 - 08:45 PM

AMOSS,
Yes, there needs to be a blank inserted into the location where the outer bearings for the balance shafts were.

The bearings for the shafts vary - one bearing was a total loss type, where the oil was fed in but just bled out after doing it's job, and the other has a passage under it so as well as feeding the bearing it goes somewhere else. I did worry that a blank woudl be starving something, but I traced it and it's not. But both need blocked or you'll lose pressure.

As simple, press-fit (interference fit) aluminium piece will do - thats what i've made up.
I can take dimensions if you need them.

I'll assume you already know about the inner bearings needing pushed in 7.5mm to cover the inner oil holes. It's an easy job, if you don't.


[edit] These parts are the blanks. Not my photo. http://www.levelzero...box_default.jpg

Edited by blackoctagon, 21 February 2021 - 08:47 PM.


#18 Vladimir

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Posted 21 February 2021 - 10:19 PM

Hi,

 

You can by both blanking plugs from US

Rear - https://www.overthet...hings_p_61.html

and front - https://www.overthet...Plugs_p_62.html

 

And I don't think that secondary chain tensioner will work after blanking the left/exhaust??? front balancer guide. If I'm not mistaken it gets oil feed after the balancer via channel in the balancer bearing.


Edited by Vladimir, 21 February 2021 - 10:26 PM.


#19 Vladimir

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Posted 21 February 2021 - 10:35 PM

It this is an interest for anyone, these guys in Russia produce a flange solution for the Davies Craig 80 water pump, only water inlet pipe to the termostat housing should be shortened with 42mm everything else is bolt on.

https://slon-workshop.ru

 

Their solution looks like that:

https://a.d-cd.net/9837299s-960.jpg

https://a.d-cd.net/6437299s-960.jpg

 

Don't know what is todays price, but you can contact them directly via the web page or/and what's up number there.


Edited by Vladimir, 21 February 2021 - 10:36 PM.


#20 AMOSS

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Posted 22 February 2021 - 06:43 AM

Blackoctagon and vladimir,

Many thanks for the replies. I did know about the inner bearings needing pushing in. I am still trying to make my mind up which way to go with my engine build. I might go the EWP route instead.




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