38 replies to this topic

[Sicey]

Looks great Dave

[cyberman]

Apropos Thorneys comment, you would think that anyone selling a splitter or other aerodynamic aid would provide a speed / load profile. Its easy enough to do even without a wind tunnel: linear pots on the suspension to get the ride height and then log speed against ride height on a data logger and calculate back to the downforce. Ian

[minime]

question for thorney...when you found your car spinning how much down force did you have on the rear? as my car does feel very planted with both the front splitter and rear wing

[Thorney]

Tested with and without the rear wing. Adding the wing generated much more balance (as you'd expect) and TBH I wouldn't bother with a front splitter unless a wing was added at the same time, there's not much point (aerodynamically speaking)

[minime]

must admit i shall be doing some more testing when i get back from my hols..i shall pop along to plans and test my setup fully...want to experience the full downforce of my wing

[Dave]

There are many types of driver which fall into several types, here for example your trackday sort (a general term to include people who want the car "set up")some who will want the kind of info Ian etc would require and myself who wants "the look" of course there are more. For people who want "the look"......whilst I've been looking for "the look" I have not found the type of data/testing that Ian and others might require. When you look through all the available mods (and I'm talking cosmetic type of thing) there are an infinate number to choose from for an infinate number of cars. Look through any "Max" power style of mag and you wont find this type of data in gereral but go to acompany like Plans who will advise you based of their knowledge what the right thing for you. The quest will go on but the kind of info that may be required would involve a significant amount of testing by the people who make them. This would make the cost prohibitive. So its horses for couses or VX's for track or not. Pick your supplier to fit the criteria you require. IMO Dave

[cyberman]

Dave, I do think your splitter looks the bee's knees. But Thorney's remarks, indicating that a splitter can alter handling characteristics sufficiently to make the car err worrying, opens up a more general can of worms. . If a manufacturer is selling irridescent paint, then no problem, what paint does is limited apart from alter appearance. But say they make and sell a stonking new wing which not only looks perfect but puts 100kgs of load on the rear and because of placement behind the rear wheels lifts 30 kgs off the front. First chap to try it isn't very savvy and locks up in the wet and runs into an artic on a roundabout (or whatever). If he could still speak he might say "I bought it 'cause it looked the part and they said the downforce would make it stick to the road". Seems to me that if the wing manufacturer didn't know about the dynamic effects he is negligent in placing this product in the market place. Caveat emptor just isn't a defence for manufacturers anymore. The onus now really is on the manufacturer to determine that his kit is "safe" in all anticipatable circumstances or, if that is not practicable, that its characteristics are known and that it is only sold to people who can use that characteristic information. So, in my view (as a manufacturer carrying extensive product liability insurance) a company that makes (or sells) a device which has two functions (makes the car pretty AND alters its characteristics) is negligent if it doesn't know about the characteristic changes induced by using its product and does not advise these to purchasers. Regards - Ian

[Dave]

indeed very valid points. But do these things that you see in all the Mags actually get tested to the degree you are suggesting? If they dont there is then potentially a lot (1000's) of after market products of this type out there. Now that is/would be worrying. I appreciate the concerns raised and will show a copy of this and the springs thread to the supplier (who will be setting up the car) and the manufactorer. (thinking about it the supplier probably does visit the sight) I know your comments are firstly from a saftey point of view. This is why I started both threads to get people thoughts and feedback on the splitter and spings. I thank you all for taking the time to make them and hope more comments will be posted. Dave

Edited by Dave, 21 June 2005 - 08:57 AM.

[Thorney]

Ian makes a valid point and its something I've been dealing with (in the light of the hraness bar issue as well). This is related to the announcement I'm making (when I type it ) but I've got £10m worth of public and product liability insurance cover to deal with this very thing. People always ask me why I take so long in doing stuff and the fact is that the profit in each item is relatively small, a couple of returns and the whole deal is not commercially viable, so I avoid the returns issue by making sure that no-one wants to return them However this isn't enough, if 'my' wing came off on the road and killed someone then (otre) I would be liable. Whilst I have some protection from the supplier its not who would be sued so I have insurance to cover any eventuality should it occure, obvioulsy I spend as many hours as it needs to make sure that this eventuality does not come to pass. Dave also has a point, some mods are for looks only which is as equally a valid reason as any other and should be seen as such, hence my IMO comments, I did post though as bodywork has a safety issue attached and to simply report the handling effects our splitter had (and its much much smaller). Dave was up front in his reasons to choose this one, so I doubt very much he'll have problems but if I didn't say anything I think it would be wrong. How many of these bodywork suppliers have this insurance? Not many I'd say, my premium is £4500 per year so for many its an expense they would rather do without.

[CupidKnewRap]

Thorney is your splitter available to buy? don't see it in the shop . From what I remember it looks the the mutts too.

[Dave]

I think with JT's car his splitter is designed/tested to meet the requirements of his setup which appears to be unique. There are not many VX's around with the amount of mods that give his power/traction etc. (dont forget it is tested with the BIG BOY spoiler) So I'm not sure if it could be directly transferred to any other VX. But it seems clear that a splitter is required that can be fitted to a variety of VX's. (there is a market but it is limited) It appears to need to come with some sort of "this is what it can do" stats/info. Its all part of the devlopment of the VX lets hope more ideas come along that we can benefit from (ie PLANS Motorsport VX) Dave

[CupidKnewRap]

He did say it was a part of a bolt-on aero-kit suitible for any VX And its designed to work well with just the rear diffusers too . If memory serves.

[Thorney]

Front splitter not quite ready for sale just yet, need to flatten the underside a little (which means a mould change) but yes, it was tested with and without other aerodymic mods and with a standard car and every variable in between so I'm happy its beneficial regardless of how else your car is set.

[snoopstah]

Is it going to be available at an affordable price? No offense, but I don't have £1k to throw at a rear spoiler, and if the splitter is at a similar price margin, it'd be a no-go for me again. If you could find a way to make these items cheaper (maybe not from CF, for instance) I think you'd have a lot more sales. Either that or VX owners are generally a lot more flush than I am!

[CupidKnewRap]

I'm far from flush and snoopstah has a point, while I'd happily save up for something £1K is a fair old sum. do understand the enthusiast market and delopment cost problems, but something should be possible.

[Thorney]

Oh no, front splitter will be more like £250 (I don't know yet so don't quote me). The problem with making them out of GF as well as CF is the fact you need to creat another mould (these cost about £700-£3000 each so its hear that the costs go up). I've figured out to make a profit on the wing I need to sell about 35 of the bloody things

[Ricky2772]

I have front turbo splitters and a rear wing....as wide as the turbo lip, not covering the full car width, a-la thorney model... still, if I keep the wing at max angle, the car becomes unstable and very nervous above 100mph...rear end jumping around and following any road camber... If I keep it flat, i.e. at the lowest downlorce setting, things get a lot better, but some extra front load besides the flimsy turbo lips is still needed....

[cyberman]

But do these things that you see in all the Mags actually get tested to the degree you are suggesting?  If they dont there is then potentially a lot (1000's) of after market products of this type out there. Now that is/would be worrying.

Errm, I hope it isn't true but I fear it probably is.

Little story: in my business we have been obliged to CE mark which involves ensuring product is compliant with the well known EMC and LV directives (amongst others). You can self-certify and hope nobody complains. If they don't then scot is free.

However, if someone complains (eg competitor) and the TSO comes round to see if you did your "due diligence" (and you didn't) potentially its a jailo. So you buy the 10Ks worth of kit and invest a couple of weeks in learning how to drive it to get meaningful results and keep very good records of your "due diligence" for each product (for you must ensure *every* product is compliant including lab only prototypes and test kit). It costs a min of £3-5K per product to so certify.

Eventually you take pride in applying the techniques you have so painfully developed to make things compliant as well as functional and it becomes part of the vocabulary of design. Which is an interesting transformation of view. We all now accept it but we had to be made to do it before we learnt to like it.

So back to your mouton. I really expect you are right: some people making "pretty add-ons" which they can shift easily probably don't care too much that at 110mph it makes the car a bit trying. And many punters buying "something pretty" probably won't think to ask - they can see its pretty and they don't know the downside for they are as yet unbitten. And if by mistake they do ask the experienced salesman will give the answer that gets him off the hook because thats what he thinks his job is.

If we want more we are going to have to make them want to. Which is part of the reason old lags like me, who have more bite wounds than whole flesh these days and who idly prefer to design the development rather than "suck it and see", do routinely ask these awkward questions to which no one selling ever knows the answer.

Amusingly, they think I'm weird for wanting to know and I know they are negligent for failing to know. Every now and again you get one who will then do his homework in order to make the sale. And sometimes he is as pleased as punch and will take pride in his new knowledge and success and it starts to change his life. Every one of these is a little victory.

Edited by cyberman, 21 June 2005 - 05:49 PM.

[Dave]

U P D A T E


Just thought I would say that I have not noticed any change in handling since the splitter was fitted

Only normal road use though.

Had positive comments about it when I've been out and about along with the normal VX chat.

So its a from me.

Dave