56 replies to this topic

[vocky]

gm use the 2.0 crank and rods

[dude]

I agree vocky, dumping the water pump for electric, good option

Dude came up with that idea

I'm rebuilding a bottom end at the minute, the balancer shafts have got to go - I can't believe the weight

not sure whether to keep the chain driven pump or swap to electric

Ditch the stdpump, chains, sprockets and both balanceshaft and you will save ~10kg
Remove you´re balanceshaft bearings and put in new ones that is turned a 1/4 to block the oilholes.

Fabricate a blanking for the waterpump/balanceshaft chaintensioner and you´re ready to go

not sure whether to keep the chain driven pump or swap to electric

What's the weight saving gain?

would there be any ?

I was just thinking that the water pump chain could be removed, so less drag on the crank

I will probably keep the driven pump, mainly due to reliability concerns

from what the gm build book states, the standard block is good for 400bhp

the only items I'm going to upgrade are the conrods, by fitting eagle units and also fit head studs

If you physically remove the pump and get a light weight electrical unit you could save a kg or two. Not sure what the weight of the pump+chain is so best get figures and do some maths

Yeah, the standard block is good for 400hp but I'd like to start a serious build with the race block. If I ever decide to add a FI kit I would plan on bringing the plant up into the 500's.

Dude, what gearbox is the FI Badster running with and what drive shafts are attached? If I want a gearbox that can handle up to 600hp am I looking at a custom job?

Vroom vroom!!

If you take the F40 gearbox from SAAB 9-3 Aero 02-(it´s the one that Badster use)it will probably stand 550-600Nm. Of course you will be walking a thin line there. But with some gentle touch with it, it should be fine.

8.700" deck height
Can you calculate the stroke via the deck height? How does that compare with a standard NA block?

just measured standard block, about 222mm, so 8.7"

500 bhp have you been talking to cp or dude

thats means we're can't get away from a long stroke motor. Wonder how GM got their import fighter up to and beyond 10,000 RPM?

I want to make sure I'm working on something that is powerful and reliable... what are CP and Dude up too

If you are interested, i got a couple of brand new SAAB turbo crankshaft (2l = 86mm stroke)

I just bought a new turbocharger for my boosted engine. It´s a Garrett GT37 that´s good for 500whp. Dont think i´ll go that far tho. I´ll probably stay around 400.

[walkes]

Buy a bike

[speedster]

I agree vocky, dumping the water pump for electric, good option

Dude came up with that idea

I'm rebuilding a bottom end at the minute, the balancer shafts have got to go - I can't believe the weight

not sure whether to keep the chain driven pump or swap to electric

Ditch the stdpump, chains, sprockets and both balanceshaft and you will save ~10kg
Remove you´re balanceshaft bearings and put in new ones that is turned a 1/4 to block the oilholes.

Fabricate a blanking for the waterpump/balanceshaft chaintensioner and you´re ready to go

not sure whether to keep the chain driven pump or swap to electric

What's the weight saving gain?

would there be any ?

I was just thinking that the water pump chain could be removed, so less drag on the crank

I will probably keep the driven pump, mainly due to reliability concerns

from what the gm build book states, the standard block is good for 400bhp

the only items I'm going to upgrade are the conrods, by fitting eagle units and also fit head studs

If you physically remove the pump and get a light weight electrical unit you could save a kg or two. Not sure what the weight of the pump+chain is so best get figures and do some maths

Yeah, the standard block is good for 400hp but I'd like to start a serious build with the race block. If I ever decide to add a FI kit I would plan on bringing the plant up into the 500's.

Dude, what gearbox is the FI Badster running with and what drive shafts are attached? If I want a gearbox that can handle up to 600hp am I looking at a custom job?

Vroom vroom!!

If you take the F40 gearbox from SAAB 9-3 Aero 02-(it´s the one that Badster use)it will probably stand 550-600Nm. Of course you will be walking a thin line there. But with some gentle touch with it, it should be fine.

8.700" deck height
Can you calculate the stroke via the deck height? How does that compare with a standard NA block?

just measured standard block, about 222mm, so 8.7"

500 bhp have you been talking to cp or dude

thats means we're can't get away from a long stroke motor. Wonder how GM got their import fighter up to and beyond 10,000 RPM?

I want to make sure I'm working on something that is powerful and reliable... what are CP and Dude up too

If you are interested, i got a couple of brand new SAAB turbo crankshaft (2l = 86mm stroke)

I just bought a new turbocharger for my boosted engine. It´s a Garrett GT37 that´s good for 500whp. Dont think i´ll go that far tho. I´ll probably stay around 400.

Thanks Dude! Will keep those cranks in mind. What price would you let them go for? PM me if it's amazingly low 400! That's a good 'magic' number, going to be an amazing drive.

[dude]

It´s a steal . You can have one for 100£ + shipping.

[speedster]

It´s a steal . You can have one for 100£ + shipping.

Dude I'm tempted! Am chasing a billet crank at the moment though

Where did you purchase the Garrett GT37 turbo unit? Got the full specifications for it somewhere?

[dude]

It´s a steal . You can have one for 100£ + shipping.

Dude I'm tempted! Am chasing a billet crank at the moment though

Where did you purchase the Garrett GT37 turbo unit? Got the full specifications for it somewhere?

It´s a forged crank

On the upside is that this crank has a 60-2 teeth triggerwheel as std. It´s at the same place, so one can use SAAB´s sender that fits right on.

You´ll need rods with bigger bore in the bigend.

I also have new SAAB turbopistons from Mahle.

[speedster]

This is my baby:

Part # 88958620
Ecotec Crankshaft, billet steel
Internally balanced, full-race, billet 4130 steel crankshaft with
1.888" rod bearings and stock-size main bearings.
Reduced stroke of 3.505" for high RPM use.

[slindborg]

imho for eying up consistent use above 8.5K your going to need a dry sump setupp with a slim jim etc. also bear this in mind as a comparisson..... a friend of mine running a 1.4 16v gm engine in his nova rally car. 1.4 producing 180bhp... it cost nearly £10K to build and needed rebuilds every 1000 rally miles at a cost of circa £1000. It revved to 9K but kept a wet sump (uber baffling though) we were told that he could have ahd a 10K rev limit but it would ahve cost a further £5K..... granted this was all a pre built engine etc but its food for thought. for most applications 8.5K is more than pleanty for road/track use etc and as many have said rod ratios are a BIG issue. is this just a willy waving thing of "ohh my rev limit is 10K" lol or do you genuinely think that you can haul approx 120bhp/litre from it.. (like the S2000 lol)

[speedster]

is this just a willy waving thing of "ohh my rev limit is 10K" lol or do you genuinely think that you can haul approx 120bhp/litre from it.. (like the S2000 lol)

I plan to build from the oil pan up! I've a budget of around 12k for the the engine build. I will bring the engine up to it's safe max RPM and be content with that, main focus is torque and power. Going with GM Billet crank plus their Ecotec Racing Piston & Pin Set (Part # 889586350) or similar gives you an engine with 2.0 liters of displacement with 10.5:1 compression so I should be able to move beyond 8000 RPM safely. Again, I'm looking for power + long term reliability. The dry sump concept is interesting.........

I intend to keep waving my willy regardless

Edited by speedster, 15 November 2006 - 04:23 PM.

[speedster]

Here's a shot at a shopping list!

[speedster]

Dude, what exhaust manifold are you bolting your Garrett GT37 onto? Are you going to custom build a complete exhaust system? I have a full milltek system which I plan to customise but I wonder how it will perform around the 400HP+ mark?

I might considering something like the Garrett GT4508R. I reckon it should have a good life-span in a high powered set-up as it's bearings are both oil and water cooled but it has a T4 inlet flange!?. It's specs are HERE

Edited by speedster, 18 November 2006 - 04:00 AM.

[slindborg]

do you have the compressor map for the turbo you think you might want to use? as the gt4508 "might" be a) too big and too laggy to be sensible... but what are you trying to achieve? high rpm na tuning or high power turbo tuning?

[RWinstanley]

do you have the compressor map for the turbo you think you might want to use?

as the gt4508 "might" be a) too big and too laggy to be sensible...

but what are you trying to achieve? high rpm na tuning or high power turbo tuning?

that's a big turbo, in the same range as we do, clicky CTT, it also doesn't have a waste gate.

we don't publish our maps online but if you can give me an idea of your peak power and torque running conditions then i'll try and find you a match.

Our turbos are generally used on heavy duty applications that run for 500k mile so we don't have ball bearing turbos only journal bearings.

Rob

PS I can't get a discount so don't ask, but i may be able to tell you which scrapped truck engine to remove one from.

Edited by RWinstanley, 18 November 2006 - 12:00 PM.

[slindborg]

rob... any jobs at cummins im bored with ecu design

[speedster]

but what are you trying to achieve? high rpm na tuning or high power turbo tuning?

we don't publish our maps online but if you can give me an idea of your peak power and torque running conditions then i'll try and find you a match.

If I go ahead and build a FI engine then eventually I'd like to build to a spec with similar power output to the GM Cobalt Phase 5 car, 535hp at 7,800 rpm and 367 lb-ft of torque at 6500 rpm, some details here CLICKY

You reckon the GT4508 is not suited? I haven't done all my homework on a turbo yet... The Phase 5 uses a Garrett GT3571R which would seem to indicate the GT45 is ott. Though Garrett only rate the GT3571R at 390HP!!!!

GT4508 Compressor Map



GT4508 Turbine Map




Dudes GT37 is rated for a max 500HP, I'd like to get above 500, even into the 600's if I can secure a good box-of-cogs (gearbox). 800HP would be a dream

Here's the GT37 maps.

GT3776Compressor Map




GT4508 Turbine Map

Edited by speedster, 18 November 2006 - 10:17 PM.

[slindborg]

going on my limited experience, 10lbs of airflow = 100bhp.. (roughly) and the 4508 looks well suited to producing 400-700bhp, but may well be laggy as feck. the gt3776 looks like it will just creep to 500bhp but you may get compresor stall/surge issues id suggest getting some back issues of performance ford magazine as there are good technical articles about speccing turbos and what the compressor maps mean and so on.

[speedster]

going on my limited experience, 10lbs of airflow = 100bhp.. (roughly) and the 4508 looks well suited to producing 400-700bhp, but may well be laggy as feck.
the gt3776 looks like it will just creep to 500bhp but you may get compresor stall/surge issues



id suggest getting some back issues of performance ford magazine as there are good technical articles about speccing turbos and what the compressor maps mean and so on.

Thanks stew! Will checkout those mags.

What do you reckon the max HP and torque figures a robust NA engine could produce? I'm guessing around 260 horsepower at the flywheel with 195 lbft of torque

[slindborg]

going on my limited experience, 10lbs of airflow = 100bhp.. (roughly) and the 4508 looks well suited to producing 400-700bhp, but may well be laggy as feck.
the gt3776 looks like it will just creep to 500bhp but you may get compresor stall/surge issues



id suggest getting some back issues of performance ford magazine as there are good technical articles about speccing turbos and what the compressor maps mean and so on.

Thanks stew! Will checkout those mags.

What do you reckon the max HP and torque figures a robust NA engine could produce? I'm guessing around 260 horsepower at the flywheel with 195 lbft of torque

id say going on "copy cat" principles, a c20XE vauxhall engine will fairly easily produce a reliable 215bhp with a bucket load of torque to match at about 7500rpm... so badly translate that into z22se numbers (assuming relative power per litre) then your looking at 107.5bhp/litre so 240bhpish should be a fairly easy task while keeping reliablity..... now consider the scary spec 1.6 16v engines can produce 240bhp id envisage a sensible max for a reliable z22se would be in the realm of 250-260bhp and if your lucky 200lbft of torque, while keeping an element of driveability, and considering the z22 will be less than rev happy due to the rod length.

[slindborg]

take heeeeeeeed of the info in the 2nd-3rd replies

http://www.vauxhalls...071rs-t346.html