67 replies to this topic

[Jim_Cross]

Having read all the good reports about Scared Stiff, I thought I'd get my car booked in. I didn't think there was anything wrong with it, but hoped that I would see the same improvements as others - slightly more direct steering and more stability at motorway speeds.

Arriving at Guglielmi Motorsport (Scared Stiff's proper name), it was comforting to see a nice array of TVRs (including Steve's Tuscan racer), as well as a Turbo Technics Elise in the garage - these guys obviously work on some pretty serious machinery. Introductions made, the guys started looking at the car while I chatted to Paul about TVRs, tank-slappers, banking and his revived, errr, night life .

After a while Wayne, the man with tools, came out to ask whether I found I had to steer a bit to keep the car going straight. Not that I knew of, but apparently the rear toe was about 10mm out on both sides. A little bit more measuring later, he also found that I had positive camber on the right front (which would cause understeer on left handers), and they'd never seen positive camber on any VX or Elise before. Their prognosis....the worst set up VX they'd seen so far And I didn't even think there was anything wrong with it!

So after about 2 hours of looking and fiddling, Steve (the man with the racing boots) took it out for a spin and came back saying that it felt pretty good, so then it was my turn for a quick spin to make sure I was happy with it. The conditions were pretty bad (wet roads, misty), and I was in a town I've never been to before. But it was roundabouts So off I pootled by myself, first corner on the industrial estate is very tight, turn in at a sensible speed and.....understeer . Awful, awful understeer! What have they done!? Feeling quite concerned, I carried on and out on to the first roundabout tentatively. Turned in, no understeer. Picked up more speed, no understeer. More speed, still none. Then I went for a lap around a square with roundabouts at each corner, and a few in between, as well as some long but bumpy straights. By the third roundabout I was convinced. Bloody brilliant! When I headed back, I discovered the first corner I took was covered in very slippery gravel...so it wasn't the set up at all.
So, here are my findings 130 miles later:

Initial Turn-in Understeer has gone
I thought it was just me not being gentle enough with the car, like Clarkson with the S2 Elise on Top Gear, which caused the car to understeer before turning in. I found this could hit my confidence, resulting in me dabbing the brakes just before turning in because I was worried that it wouldn't turn in.
Now that feeling has totally gone. Turn in, and the car immediately goes where you point it. There is no delay, no understeer. You have to be much, much more forceful with it now to make it understeer. As a result, you can turn in much quicker

Steering feels much tighter
As I drove home, I realised what the positive front camber had caused. When I would come rolling to stop previously and let go off the wheel, it would drop to the left. It's something you don't even realise, because you're so used to it, until it goes away. The steering is also heavier around full lock. As I said above, the cars turns in more instantly - I think this feeling is partly contributed to by the tighter steering - it now feels like there was some slack in it previously.

MUCH better control on bumpy roads
Something that had concerned me recently was a couple of incidents I had where the whole car had been thrown across the road by unseen bumps. I also found that it could follow bumps the dips in the road, especially on motorways. As a result, I found you really had to hold the steering wheel tight and make a conscious effort to keep the car going straight. Now, it tracks straight without any effort, and feels far more planted over bumps. I brought it home down some awful roads, and it felt totally composed - never skipping across the surface (despite the bad conditions), and the better composure also let it put the power down much better and there was more stability under braking on bumpy roads. Excellent

More controlled steering
This is related to the two points above I guess, but I used to find the wheel would get tugged around very hard on bumpy roads, and would jiggle incessently on anything other than glass-smooth motorways. That jiggling and tugging has now disappeared. The wonderful feedback is still there, the wheel still dances in your hands, but now it's a more composed, correographed dance, rather than the break-dance of some ecstacy-crazed teenager. Initially it did feel like some of the feedback had gone, but it just takes a while to realise that before I was mistaking the wheels following the road and tugging at the wheel as feedback.

Better ride quality
I'm not sure whether the ride quality is better, or whether that's just the impression given by all of the above effects combined, but it certainly feels less crashy over bumps, cats-eyes etc. There's times that would have had me wincing before that are no longer a problem.

That's everything I can think of really. To sum up, I'm over the moon - it's the best £141 pounds I could have spent on the car. They're a great bunch of lads, very enthusiastic, prefer the VX to the Elise (what more could you ask for?!), and they've done a stunning job. A huge thumbs up from me. If you haven't had yours gone, get yourself down there. You might not see quite as much improvement as me (I guess it depends how well your car is set up initially), but even the best set-up VX out of the factory can be markedly improved.

[Ricky2772]

welcome to a properly set-up VX..... the fact that you had a POSITIVE front camber does not surprise me in the least.... I removed ALL the front camber shims, and I would remove more if available.... (some loti's even grind off the hub... ) rear end is a bit trickier to sort out...I had to employ a precision thermometer to find out how much camber was needed....

[speedyK]

Brilliant report, Jim!

It's a bit worrying though how everyone who goes to Scared Stiff says that their car is transformed. Who the hell is setting them up so poorly at Lotus in the first place?

I'm starting to consider an trip from Switzerland if they really are that good.... but that's ridiculous.

IMO Lotus/GM should get their finger out and set them up properly before they leave Hethel – I mean, afterall they've got a test track right there haven't they?

[Jim_Cross]

They said that most of the VXs that come in are set up pretty much the same, so I guess most are setup "correctly". But it does surprise me that they can come up with a setup that is such an improvement on Lotus' own setup. Bearing in mind I have experienced the new setup in the worst conditions, I'm confident that it is much easier to drive in the wet. There is noticeably more rear-end grip, and they swear that when it does go, it will be much more progressive (makes me feel like a hero for the couple of times it has gone and I have caught it With the way mine was setup, they reckon when it did go, it would snap very, very quickly, which is supported by my experience). So, from what I've seen, I can't see any justification for the stock setup over the Scared Stiff setup - I'm sure it's not for driveability/safety reasons. You say a trip from Switzerland is crazy...there was a guy in there this morning with a TVR, and he had come over from Southern Ireland. So yes, they are that good! Make the trip over...you know you want to

Edited by Jim_Cross, 19 December 2003 - 08:00 PM.

[NOEXCESSBAGGAGE]

If I remember correctly, when Clarkson (off TG) tracked in the elise, he complained bitterly about the initial understeer. Then he consulted with the inhouse lotus chassis and roast tester who then drove him round the same track and displayed markedly different driving characteristics to what Clarkson had previously just reported on. The turn-in understeer disappeared, though it was helped a little (I seem to recall) by the style of the lotus guy's driving, but balanced cornering and oversteer were there on demand.

[speedyK]

You say a trip from Switzerland is crazy...there was a guy in there this morning with a TVR, and he had come over from Southern Ireland. So yes, they are that good! Make the trip over...you know you want to

[speedyK]

balanced cornering and oversteer were there on demand.

Yes, but it would seem that the Scared Stiff set up makes it noticably better in most people's hands. That is the point of contention – why do Lotus set it up in an apparently compromised way, compared to what can be achieved, in the first place?

[Jim_Cross]

If I remember correctly, when Clarkson (off TG) tracked in the elise, he complained bitterly about the initial understeer.
Then he consulted with the inhouse lotus chassis and roast tester who then drove him round the same track and displayed markedly different driving characteristics to what Clarkson had previously just reported on.
The turn-in understeer disappeared, though it was helped a little (I seem to recall) by the style of the lotus guy's driving, but balanced cornering and oversteer were there on demand.

Give me an airfield, and I could make my car with the current setup look like Clarkson did. The same probably even be done with an S1 Elise. Similarly, I'm sure you could give my original setup to Gavin Kershaw, and he could make it look like he made the S2 Elise look on top gear.
If you drive it ham-fisted, then it will understeer. But IMO that's a good thing - it's a safety net. But what this setup proves is that you can retain that safety net, but remove the draw backs.

As for the oversteeer on demand - I believe that had a lot to do with Kershaw's judicious use of the Scandanavian flick when entering corners - a 111S doesn't really have enough power to get power oversteer like that...and I'm about to go learning the art of Scandanavian flickery on the road!

Edited by Jim_Cross, 19 December 2003 - 08:52 PM.

[streetboy]

...The turn-in understeer disappeared, though it was helped a little (I seem to recall) by the style of the lotus guy's driving, but balanced cornering and oversteer were there on demand.

There was a discussion about this on SELOC. Apparently Gavin K was trailing the brakes through the turns to keep the weight over the front wheels.

My VXT handles like a pig compared to my old NA. I might treat myself to a geo set-up for Christmas.

Fab report Jim.

By the way, WTF is a ‘Scandanavian flick’? (I’m guessing it’s a quick lift-off to induce oversteer on turn in?)

[Bengie]

Scandanavian flick is where you turn the wrong way into a corner first, then the right way - it unsettles the rear end, making it come round much easier ...

I think it's mostly used my the McRaes of the world, whilst doing their driving jobs - but even made a slight difference (though probably phscological) on my MK1 Fiesta

Stu Harris did say, at Hethel, that it's so easy to knock these cars out of alignment - one pot hole can do it. I think a Scared Stiff re-cal might be something that is done once every twelve months, rather than forever.
I suppose that's a side effect of having such a finely balanced chassis ...

cheers

[stu harris1]

One of the items that everyone should bank on is a total realignment check on a regular basis. When we were prepping the press cars Lotus recommended a check every other time the car went out. Now this is due to the care and consideration that our fab media take with our cars but it does give an inkling as to their less robust nature than a standard box on wheels. Stu

[Steve Crisp]

This has tempted me to spend £89 on a castor/camber gauge. I'd rather be in a position to check and adjust it myself. I'm sure you can get very well kitted out of £150. Steve

[streetboy]

I suppose that's a side effect of having such a finely balanced chassis ...

I suppose that's a side effect of sticking a car together with pritstick.

[Bengie]

That's right - p*ss on my bonfire - 1st time I thought I'd posted summat right... Grr... I don't know whether it's potholes or what, but it could explain why the cars that Scared Still are seeing are all out. Mostly in the same direction as well. Would be interesting to see what happens to a Scared Still setup over the course of 6/12 months.

[davehutchinson]

Do you have a phone number for Scared Stiff, might get mine booked in! Where abouts are they based too?

[Bengie]

sorry mate

That's ok - wasn't really upset ... *sniff*

I have a theory that the set-up at factory is a safety measure - understeers to make it more forgiving?

problem is in setting up like this when a driver does lose the backend it's way too far gone to get it back??

i drove my car for a few months before getting it ss'd and much more confident as to what is really going on since it's been done.

I think you are right - also maybe it was in an effort to distinguish the Elise and VX.

I'm planning to get mine done at some point, but am being careful with the pennies - but it's somewhere near the top of the to-do list - definately infront of Engine mods etc ...

[ddavez]

Hi Nice report, how much did it all cost?