182 replies to this topic

[vxr36]

I ask just one question. After reading this (which I will try not to make opinionated just factual), who should be invoicing who?

Back in June 2006 I was looking for tuners that could upgrade my car to approximately 360BHP. John Thorne told me that the German tuners (Vmax), who I also approached through my German wife, would not be as sensible as using TMS due to the location. He advised me that he could satisfy my requirements as he was already running 330BHP on his car, and by the end of the year he could take my car in and give me 360BHP. He gave me an estimate for the costs involved (which I have got) – Vmax was €8500, TMS was £8500. It should be noted that this was an estimate and I have at no point been given a firm quote for any of the work that has been done. In fact I still don’t know how much the mods have cost (because the car is not finished and I have not had the final invoice from TMS, save to say that I have parted with £11488.50 so far

In December I called John and we agreed to book the car in during the first few months of 2007 for the engine internals. Here’s my post from after that visit.

Feb 26 2007
Been wanting this conversion since June last year. TMS were developing the kit at that time and as I didn't want to be a guinea pig I decided to let the development cycle finish before I bit the bullet.

I chased TMS periodically but at the turn of 2007 I was told that all was OK and the mod had been done to 4 cars already. Cool, I thought and booked VXR36 in.

The work I wanted was estimated and the time to complete was 8 days to 2 weeks. 6 weeks later I was invited to pick the car up. It had a cracked rear clam and some additional scratches. Also the interior was filthy. TMS agreed to address the issues. I drove 500 yards before a big bang! At first I thought it was the fan belt snapping but it turned out to be the heat shield which fell on to the fan belt. I left it there for another 1-2 weeks.

I now know that a Stage 5 is still work in progress and after paying over a substancial amount of cash, I have not idea of when my car will be finished.

Currently, I have an oil leak that is messing up my drive and garage, wires showing in the cockpit, the side sills are not stuck back down. My TC wire has been damaged and the car is virtually undrivable... In fact my wife will not drive it. I have stage 5 mechanics, a stage 4 map and the standard VXR turbo. Sure it goes like a rocket above 4500 revs, but up to that point it is so unpredictable. It is .3 of a second slower than my stage 2 when accelerating from 30 to 90 in third! If I turn left I grind the front wheel arch liner and if I go over a bump the rear driver's side wheel grinds the liner.

I wish TMS had been honest about the development of the stage 5 and I wish they had taken more care when dealing with my baby. As it is I feel my car let down especially considering how much it has cost me to get this far.... A substantial amount.

No doubt these issues will be resolved and I will look back and think that all my current bad feeling was a storm in a tea-cup. However, I am not convinced that this will be any time soon.

I had asked John how many cars he had done the stage 5 mod on and he said that mine was the 5th. 3 of the happy owners were not on the forum and MikeF was the 4th at at a similar stage as mine. After realising that this must surely be a lie I tried to remain positive and carried on with the work (which was clearly development, even though there is no development done on customer cars!). On May 7 2007 things were better and although I had been without the car for some considerable time that year already I was pleased to be finally making progress. We didn’t have a turbo or manifold yet and as they had been delayed I went back to get the ‘snags’ rectified…

Many of you will remember the disappointment expressed in my last update of this very exclusive and expensive modification. Here is the latest position:-

Since my last post I have had a whole load of snags. I was trying to live with them until the Stage 5 modification was fully designed and tested, but 3 months after the initial engine enhancements I felt I couldn't wait any longer. So I took the car back to TMS last week to get my issues ironed out.

John had had a lot of emails from me and on my arrival he patiently went around the car making further notes as we addressed each 'snag' in turn. He then took me to the train station.

On Friday, I was told that everything was fixed and that I could pick the car up whenever I liked. We agreed on Sunday. This was very convenient for me as I was at Silverstone that day and I greatly appreciated John's flexibility on making the pick-up possible in the middle of his family Bank Holiday weekend!

Being sceptical about the car being finished to my high standards I checked the car out before my long drive back to Camberley. All the visible issues had been resolved and no new ones had arisen. In fact, I immediately got that warm feeling that a great deal of care had gone into addressing each snag. Now for the driving part....

You may remember that, after the initial engine mods, I had reported being unhappy with the power deliver and, because of the 'stuttering' between 3500 and 4500 revs, I felt the car was not only slower than my stage 2 but also very unpredictable to drive. Well, not now.... I have a linear and responsive power line now. I don't have the mind blowing aggressive acceleration after 4500 that I had before but I am sure it is faster than before as I don't have the stuttering either. (something to test in a 30mph to 90mph in 3rd today). I suspect that the hybrid map I was given has been removed and my old map has been reapplied, but I don't know yet: I have to find out when John is back at work. Nevertheless the current available power is infinitely more usable than before.

Back again during the August Bank holiday for the last part of the work to be done. Here was my up beat note from that time.

Sep 4 2007
9 months after the car first went in for its Stage 5 it is now getting the final parts of the mod done.

Back in February the Engine internals were done and I was not too please with the attention to detail that had gone into working on the car. Since then it has been back a few times and each time it has been treated very well.

Now it is at TMS for the pipework, Turbo and THAT (V sexy) manifold. As part of this visit it is also getting the long range tank from Pro Alloy and having the injectors and remap done.

Speaking with John yesterday, it sounded as if they were getting quite excited about having my car nearly finished. They seemed to be giving it the royal treatment from what I could tell.

I look forward to picking up the 'TMS flag ship' car on Friday and I promise to give you all the details. Watch this space....

Then my next post after the car had been away for nine weeks making the total number of days at TMS equal to 5 months! Now I am not saying that it had anything to do with the constant rolling roads and test runs but during its time away this time it burst a radiator, had an engine mount broken (which was not fixed), caught fire, the oil temp recorded a max of 136 degrees, and needed new rear tyres.

Nov 10 2007
I took the car in on the August bank holiday and didn't pick it up until 26th October.

During the 9 weeks it was away it was having the turbo, manifold, injectors and long-range fuel tank fitted. It was also having a completely new map done.

I was kept up-to-date with progress. Although it seemed to take forever, I was keen to not to be seen to rush the guys. At one point a fire occurred in the engine bay during a rolling road run, which obviously extended the time that the car was away. I now have replacement parts and proper heat deflectors along the bulk head (instead of the sound insulation, which was what caught fire in the first place). TMS also has reworked the heat deflectors that fit around the turbo and manifold.

When I picked the car up I was told that all the parts were fitted but the new larger injectors were still too small. What was happening was that the car was running lean under full boost and the car was getting hot as a result. The consequence of this was that the engine was retarding the ignition. This was not noticed until very late on - Apparantly the Superchips set-up is not very good at measuring intake temperatures and a lot of the mapping that was done there was a waste of time.

As I wanted the car back, the only course of action was to back the boost off to 14psi, which is what I am running now. This is a lower boost than I was running with my old turbo but the map is a lot smoother than I had previously. In fact, when the car is finally finished if the map remains as smooth as it is now I will have a very drivable car indeed.

Unfortunately the only source of the injectors that I need is the USA so this is not going to be a quick fix. Also, after the fitting of these monster injectors, I will require another couple of weeks of remapping. I agreed that all of this work would be done to the race car first to avoid my car being the development car again.

So when it is all done I will write a full review. Fingers crossed.

In actual fact it did not have a larger injectors (as confirmed later by Courtnays) I think I was told that they were actually smaller to cure the huge flat spot at 3500 to 4500 that I reported earlier.

I got the engine mount fixed before Christmas at Plans who advised that the car ran so lean at full power that I would have been in danger of damaging the pistons if they had not have been uprated. They said the heat created was incredible. That is when I decided to get a second opinion from Courtnays (where the car is now).

I was advised of a number of faults with my car not least the map that was examined by Stefan Klasen. At that point I decided not to return to TMS and instead part company with TMS. When I advised John Thorne of the fact that I had heard two reports, which I was not prepared to disclose unless forced to by solicitors, and that it was clear to me that TMS did not have the skills necessary to finish the job he mentioned the matter of a final bill. This was never issued and instead I was advised that if I kept quiet then it never would be. Since then, I got my conflicting voice mail today and now the gloves are off to defend my honour and position.

[Thorney]

Andrew, I'm sure you and I will enjoy putting forward our respective case in front of a registrar, in such an environment forum etiquette is over ruled by that of law, a comfort to us both Im sure. I see no need to conduct an argument here (regardless of its entertainment value), here the argument means little, in court it is binding, it is of course also controlled by regulations on perjury.

[Sticky]

We haven't had a good TMS bashing thread for ages, this is so exciting.

And we aren't having one now. We are having a discussion. hth

If courtenay / regal / vauxhall / anyone came on a forum and said something that I thought was questionable I would ask exactly the sort of questions I'm asking here.

I can't speak for everyone on this thread but for me, all I care about is the truth and a return to those old fashioned values of honesty and decency. If John makes a stirling rousing defence and when reading it i think "good point, well made" then i will of course retract any harsh statement i've made.

HTH

EDIT : If i posted something to say the world was round and someone said "lazy thats sh*t it's flat. You're a c*nt" and then when i said "my new car is white" and the same person said "lazy you c*ck, it's black. and you're a c*nt" that would be "lazy bashing". Therefore TMS bashing would be disagreeing with every statement john makes regardless of the validity of the statement. As far as i can see there has been no tms bashing in this thread.

Well, there isn't alot of positivity flying around.

Sticky

[cheeky_chops]

all i can say it "throttle bodies". Rubber lost his car for the best part of two years due to lack of skills - you had a lucky escape

[Thorney]

And now they are done to good effect. The TB delays were primarily down to Webcon taking so much time and I shared Rubbers frustration constantly, the fact I bought his car off him when it suited him does suggest that I made good when the time came.

[LazyDonkey]

all i can say it "throttle bodies". Rubber lost his car for the best part of two years due to lack of skills - you had a lucky escape

I can say "exhaust manifold" too

[ChazUwe]

Maybe we could have a vx220.org court day, we could make up banners and cheer for whatever side of the fence we sit on. In true vx220.org style: 1) ChazUwe - Camping - Spectator Can anyone sort out a burger van? Any dependable witnesses out there prepared to be cross examined

[Thorney]

lol, the 2.2 manifold was a bit of a surprise, I've spoken to the only customer we mail ordered one out, he knew he was the first and I doubted the problem, however since then we've tried to fit one to Martins car, had the same problem, spoke to the supplier, fixed the problem and fitted it without a problem. Dario seems happy with the method to sort him out for the extra labour it cost him so thats all thats important to me.

[LazyDonkey]

lol, the 2.2 manifold was a bit of a surprise, I've spoken to the only customer we mail ordered one out, he knew he was the first and I doubted the problem, however since then we've tried to fit one to Martins car, had the same problem, spoke to the supplier, fixed the problem and fitted it without a problem. Dario seems happy with the method to sort him out for the extra labour it cost him so thats all thats important to me.

So, just to confirm, the first two ONE THOUSAND POUND precision-made, f1 supplier supplied exhaust manifolds that definately did not require the clam to be cut (their USP in fact)

.......................didnt actually fit without the clam being cut.

glad it's sorted now.

Edited by LazyDonkey, 25 January 2008 - 10:41 PM.

[Sticky]

all i can say it "throttle bodies". Rubber lost his car for the best part of two years due to lack of skills - you had a lucky escape

I have Rubbers car now and I can assure you everything is fantastic (apart from my lack of driving ability but that's for another day)

Sticky

[cheeky_chops]

And now they are done to good effect. The TB delays were primarily down to Webcon taking so much time and I shared Rubbers frustration constantly, the fact I bought his car off him when it suited him does suggest that I made good when the time came.

yea great effect it was just another example of your excessive bullshit

I've never locked or deleted a thread in my life, why would I start with this one, we have nothing to hide.

You obviously forgot the thread you locked after the threatening PM you send me?

http://www.vx220.org...showtopic=20688

[Thorney]

lol, the 2.2 manifold was a bit of a surprise, I've spoken to the only customer we mail ordered one out, he knew he was the first and I doubted the problem, however since then we've tried to fit one to Martins car, had the same problem, spoke to the supplier, fixed the problem and fitted it without a problem. Dario seems happy with the method to sort him out for the extra labour it cost him so thats all thats important to me.

So, just to confirm, the first two ONE THOUSAND POUND precision-made, f1 supplier supplied exhaust manifolds that definately did not require the clam to be cut (their USP in fact)

.......................didnt actually fit without the clam being cut.

glad it's sorted now.

We had three made up, alll went on race cars and our own TB car for test fitting, running. After these proved themselves (and after a change in supplier) we ordered three more, Dario got the first, we had two in stock. Dario had problems fitting his, we couldn't understand why and I asked for Dario to return his so I could refund him, he said he'd rather fit it anyway so I said I've refund him some to compensate (still not knwing why they didn't fit). Fast forward to last week, we tried to fit one to Martins car, didn't fit, supplier came up, confirmed it was different, replaced the items, we fitted to Martins car, all happy. Still investigating why the first batch differed, one idea is that the race cars didn't have boots, but they did so we're still a stumped. However the new ones fit, thats the important bit. Whole reason its taken this long is that I wanted to halt development on the 2.2 until we could test all the 2.4 inlet options, a mani is one of those options.

[Thorney]

Cheeky, read your own link, the thread was locked as it had reached a conclusion and was regarding commercial posting regarding you getting a free Blueflame exhaust in return for promoting it.

[Guy182]

or this one
http://www.vx220.org...s...0&start=140

or this one
http://www.vx220.org...s...20688&st=20



etc...

[Thorney]

The suggestion was I would lock or delete the thread to some how 'cover up' the content, the threads you link to quite clearly demonstrate that 'covering up' is the one thing I don't do - thank you.

[Ekona]

I made good when the time came.

And that, ladies and gents, has been my point from the start. I've been to TMS a mere twice in my ownership of VXR20, and both times there were *ahem* issues *ahem* regarding other customers cars (luckily not my own, although when it was discovered that my clutch was shagged prior to a stage 2 they bent over backwards to fit me in, but that's another story) John went out of his way to make good recompense to the injured parties. He did this in front of me, which as a stranger to the business was either commercial suicide or upfront honesty about the way he runs the business. I took it as the latter.

It's a fact of life that people fcuk up. It's always going to happen. It's what happens after that that defines a company's success and I still think this is why TMS are still around.


I've got no connection anymore to TMS as the car has now gone, so it's very unlikely I'll ever go back there (sorry John!) but this whole argument between Andrew (who has been very patient) and John (who has been very honest) is more or less a waste of time. This forum continues to astound me as to the friendliness of the people on here and also to the bitterness directed at TMS, and even in my relative short stay here I'm sick of it: It's boring and it really does drag this place down. Yes, of course you should be allowed to state your case when you've had bad service, but a simple thread with ONLY people posting who have been to TMS and their experiences (whether good or bad) would suffice, and you can then let the individual make their own mind up. Whilst the good would outweigh the bad, the bad have been catastrophic as seen here.



Andrew was naive (maybe the wrong word, perhaps too trusting would suit better) in his approach to TMS in that he never got a firm cost on the works, and TMS have been very slow to make things right and sort out proper communication. Both parties have their faults in this, and it would be better for all concerned were this to be sorted out before the courts, which I suspect it will when both men have calmed down and started acting like adults. Andrew's right to air his grievances here, but you must then accept John's right to reply and if his business suffers because of that then so be it, but he's damn as hell clever enough to know that's the risk he takes. Whilst I'm sure this post will die a death under the weight of the 'Ekona is a TMS sympathiser! Burn him!' replies, and probably a scything reply to this from Andrew which would probably be warranted (I don't know him personally and I'm honestly sorry if I've offended him, I promise I'm not trying to rub salt in the wounds), I'm merely trying to point out that if everyone took a step back, realised that this isn't a perfect world and then tried to do the decent thing, then mountains need not be made of molehills. That applies to both sides as much as everyone else who joins in, myself included.

[Guy182]

lmao. and you threatened me with solicitors letters for saying you was a liar??? 1 whole page back. quote: ''I've never locked or deleted a thread in my life, why would I start with this one'' if this wasnt so serious for Andrew it would be laughable..

Edited by Guy182, 25 January 2008 - 11:01 PM.

[cheeky_chops]

Cheeky, read your own link, the thread was locked as it had reached a conclusion and was regarding commercial posting regarding you getting a free Blueflame exhaust in return for promoting it.

i have never promoted the zorst at all - it suits you to lock a thread when it is harming your commercial interest

Go on, you know you want to....

[csl_freak]

Hmm dont see how TMS is going to come out ahead on this one: 1) If TMS wins in court = bully "corporation" against small guy...whose car does not really work right now (I base this on posts by both parties) 2) TMS loses in court, they were wrong all along, so cant be trusted... Sales of goods 1979 (amended by The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002) will be heavily in favor of customer in this case, whether we have full facts from both sides or not, the issues at stake cannot, in my opinion be changed much by "who said what when" and will turn mainly facts as they stand today (car does not perform as could be reasonably expected) I am sure that both sides sollicitors (mebbe even barristers if your really unlucky) will come up with more meat for both sides. You will both be paying fees, losing time and money. Before going down this route why dont you both go for mediation ? this might put things in perspective and have it settled in a faster, cheaper manner ? But hey who am I my to talk, I walked away from a sub 100'000 settlement, which ended 4 year later, legal costs having escalated to 1.5 million £.... Ok we won...but our share of un-recoverable costs was in excess of 250'000£... Good luck and good night

[Thorney]

Small Claims Court, no fees, just pride and knowing what is right and what is wrong. County Court is very simple, explain the facts, let a registrar decide who is right based on legal precedent.