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#1 cheeky_chops

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 10:45 AM

I have a set of OEM Z20LET cams winging their way to me. Now i dont mind loosing abit of low down torque (have 340lbft! :rolleyes: ) for more topend. I dont find the thumping 340lbft overboost to be too friendly tbh. Here is a dyno plot i found, this is both x20xev NA cams in the Z20LET on std timings

Posted Image

OEM cams are :
duration 251 Lift 8.5mm inlet
duration 250 Lift 8.5mm exhaust

Should i have them reground £200?

Piper have offered the following:
252 Degrees / 9.58mm - Inlet
240 Degrees / 9.58mm - Exhaust

Alternatives are Regal inlet only (£200) or a X20XEV inlet only (pikey from a scrap yard).

x20xev spec:
Inlet: 252deg duration Lift 9.44 mm
exhaust: 252deg duration Lift 9.44 mm (i think is same as inlet)

I need to get my cambelt changed so, how many hour(s) work is it to replace 1/both cams on top? I also need to speak to courtenay as i believe they can remap for more power and dial out some of the lumpyness

Edited by cheeky_chops, 19 March 2009 - 11:31 AM.


#2 cheeky_chops

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 10:57 AM

some reading:
http://www.max-boost...cams_C20LET.htm

edit: how do i work out the overlap for the piper cams? :unsure:

Edited by cheeky_chops, 19 March 2009 - 11:26 AM.


#3 MEAGY

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 08:05 PM

Ive been wondering about the Piper cams that piper do for the vxr! I would also like to sacrifice a bit of low end torque for high end power!

#4 MrSimba

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 10:04 PM

some reading:
http://www.max-boost...cams_C20LET.htm


Thats a really intersting read thanks for posting thumbsup

#5 Duncan VXR

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 10:16 PM

Info from SBD motorsport website; We are often asked what up-rated cams do we & that can be just bolted on to a standard engine, without taking it apart. To save yourselves & us a lot of time, here are the advantages & disadvantages of carrying out this operation: - 1. On almost all modern 16 valve production engines compression ratios are quite high to aide combustion for low emissions & the way the compression is kept high is to not to keep piston pockets to a minimum. This unfortunately allows little if any room for increase the opening of the cam at TDC (which is the easiest way to generate extra BHP by using the exhaust gases to help draw in the next charge). 2. The Designers of modern combustion engines are also being asked to make them smaller, lighter, as well as being cheaper to produce. So the room for increasing the cam lift with out replacing the valve springs is usually quite small. 3. Because of the problems mentioned in 1 & 2. The gains are usually quite small for money spent. The way you can attempt tuning your standard engine just by cams changes are. a. The use of Group N Cam profiles these are normally used in cars where the Championship rules specify that standard cam profiles must be used. But the FIA & most other motor sport governing bodies give a tolerance which is usually + or – 2 Degrees on the duration & + or – 0.2mm on the lift. So these are taken advantage of on special ground profiles that are extremely accurately ground to the upper limits of these tolerances. But unfortunately the gains from this type of profile are very small. In Group N type Championships though, any small gain is always worth having, but for any other competition where such rules do not apply we would not recommend this type of profile. b. The second type of profile is sometimes called a group N+ profile. These are designed for championships where the rules state your engine must retain standard or near standard valve lift, no modifications are allowed to the standard piston pockets, but cam duration is free. The problem with this type of cam is because of the restriction caused by the valve to piston pocket clearance. Usually they are very special cam profiles, which have been designed with very rapid valve opening to take maximum advantage of the limited space available. The problem with this is that they have to be very carefully run in, are not suitable for high mileage use & must be very accurately timed to avoid valve to piston contact. Again only recommend where regulations force their use. c. The last & most often attempted way of fitting an up-rated cam is to use a profile, which is quite mild on acceleration with a mild increase in duration over the standard cam. The problem with this is as stated before, due to the lack of space the new cam profile cannot be timed to its optimum. This will give 1 of 2 similar effects. Either a huge loss in bottom end torque & only a small increase in peak power, over the original cam. This usually occurs if the replacement cam profiles have to be Retarded a long way (to avoid piston contact) because their duration is a lot greater than the standard cams. Or if the new profile is mild enough to fit with only slight retardation the effect is almost the same accept the loss in bottom end torque is not as great & the gain in peak BHP is almost not worth having. The only other common question we are asked, is people running road cars e.g. Astra 2.0L 16V or Cavalier SRI & GSI even the modern Ecotec engines as fitted to the latest range of Vauxhall cars. What kind of camshaft can I fit to my car? As well as all the problems already listed, you have one further problem to add and that is, that most production cars use what is known as air-flow metering. They are either what is called ‘hot wired’ where the air being drawn across a heated wire changes the resistance according to temperature. So the faster the air, the cooler the wire becomes and from this the standard ECU is able to work out the amount of air being drawn across the air-flow meter. The other type is what we call a ‘gate type’ and the faster the engine draws the air, the gate being sprung loaded, is sucked open further. Now for the problem – all camshafts generate a pulsing effect, this is where at a certain point in the engine cycle the inlet charge becomes stationary (for simplicities sake). On a mildly tuned engine e.g. standard, this stationary pocket of air remains very close to the cylinder head. As you attempt to increase the cam duration on overlap to generate more power, this stationary pocket of air moves further and further up the inlet tract, eventually reaching the air-flow meter. Once this happens all air-flow metered systems become completely confused. So if you fit a camshaft which is a great enough improvement to give you an increase in performance, it will almost certainly produce the described effect and if you fit a camshaft mild enough not to cause the effect, your gains will be almost insignificant. You might say, why not move the air-flow meter further away? Problem 1 is the reason most road cars are sluggish on throttle response is because the airflow meter is so far away from the head to begin with. The manufacturer has carefully worked out the position, which is as close as possible to the engine without causing the effect described. The further away you move the airflow meter the slower the throttle response becomes. So in effect, any gains you might have got from changing the cams is completely lost by the increasing delay of throttle response. The only kind of system that can cope with this pulsing effect, is a throttle angle system such as the MBE systems we supply. They are pre-programmed with an amount of fuel for every at various speeds and throttle openings and as such are not effected pulsing. There is also no delay because whatever speed you are at, and whatever throttle angle you achieve, the ECU knows immediately the pre-programmed amount of fuel to deliver. So as you will see from our Engine kits, if the replacement cams are used they are fitted in conjunction with either, deepening of the pockets of the standard pistons or replacement of the piston with up rated piston with deeper pocket & higher compression

#6 cheeky_chops

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 10:25 PM

You can do better than that C/P shite! Seems to me most of that is geared towards a NA. eg going on about high compression, and, how can the pulses get back thru the turbo to the AMM? :rolleyes:

#7 Duncan VXR

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 10:30 PM

You can do better than that C/P shite!

Seems to me most of that is geared towards a NA. eg going on about high compression, and, how can the pulses get back thru the turbo to the AMM? :rolleyes:


:D:D:D:D glad you like my cut and paste late at night ;)

I did speak to them and overall did not think it was worth the cost to change the cams with std head. Talked about matching the head to the cam and the robbing peter to pay paul issue (torque for bhp) and all in all not really worth it on a turbo setup

I was soooo close to doing mine but we all know the turbo is the biggest restriction ;)

Be good to see the results though Paul ;) may change my mind :D

#8 Toady

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 08:08 AM

why would you want the duration on the exhaust cam to be reduced though?

#9 cheeky_chops

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 08:51 AM

I was soooo close to doing mine but we all know the turbo is the biggest restriction ;)


indeed but the turbo still has to push the air around and thru the cams - every little helps! :)

why would you want the duration on the exhaust cam to be reduced though?


(i am kinda guessing here!) Reduce overlap? - the graph i posted above is with both inlet and exhaust cams from x20xev. On a NA you want more overlap to help pull the new air in. On a turbo its stuffing in as much as it can. Larger overlap reduces torque and you can see it mid range.

edit: good article on overlap http://www.turbochar...m/Camshafts.htm

Just called Jon @courts (busy atm) for his advise re mapping out idle/fueling etc. And been PM'ing Garry @ Piper - he has convinced me to give it a whirl! ;)

Edited by cheeky_chops, 20 March 2009 - 09:51 AM.


#10 cheeky_chops

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 09:43 AM

all done and dusted - cams are on their way to Piper! Lets hope the fookers produce some gg's :rolleyes:

#11 Toady

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 09:45 AM

But with less duration the cam isn't open as long so the gas' have less time to exit? If your turbo is pushing air past your cams though I think you may have your pipework routed a little wrong! :groupjump: :jump:

#12 cheeky_chops

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 10:05 AM

Read the link above. The gas is pushed out by the piston. The problem is you have a turbo stopping it getting out of the exhaust causing high pressure in the exhaust manifold. If overlaped, this will cause the pistion to push air back thru the inlet valve, not the ehaust value = BAD!

oem
(stock c20LET ) all i could find a Z20LEt but prob the same

IN: 7/64, i.e. duration 251
EX: 50/20 i.e. duration 250, overlap 27 degrees

Piper astra VXR specDuration Inlet: 252 deg
Duration Exhaust: 240 deg
Valve Lift Inlet: .377" 9.58mm
Valve Lift Exhaust: .377" 9.58mm
Timing: 16 - 56 / 50 - 10 = overlap 26 degrees

Edited by cheeky_chops, 20 March 2009 - 10:08 AM.


#13 Exmantaa

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 10:11 AM

edit: good article on overlap http://www.turbochar...m/Camshafts.htm



Very good article on Turbo cam problems! The (standard) C20LEt or Z20LET have a restrictive turbine, so lots of backpressure that will cause reversion on higher boost levels. (Push back exhaust gas into cilinder => bad)
I know that Klasen motorsport (He who maps the engines for Courtenay ;) ) has special cams for the C20LET (and probably also Z20LET) because of this reversion problem.

Edited by Exmantaa, 20 March 2009 - 10:13 AM.


#14 slindborg

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 10:18 AM

http://www.totalvaux...6.tech_LPDF.pdf

From Chip on vauxsport

#15 Tommess

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 10:43 AM

Very good article on Turbo cam problems! The (standard) C20LEt or Z20LET have a restrictive turbine, so lots of backpressure that will cause reversion on higher boost levels. (Push back exhaust gas into cilinder => bad)
I know that Klasen motorsport (He who maps the engines for Courtenay ;) ) has special cams for the C20LET (and probably also Z20LET) because of this reversion problem.



Yes, Stephan Klasen is selling those sportcams.

click me

I know some customers who already have them, they are very satisfied with the results... :rolleyes:

Here is a video of an Opel Astra OPC with these sportcams idling.

Yum Yum :wub:

Edited by Tommess, 20 March 2009 - 10:49 AM.


#16 cheeky_chops

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 04:06 PM

http://www.totalvaux...6.tech_LPDF.pdf

From Chip on vauxsport

cheers slind - v interesting esp the retard one tooth which a few people on AOC/zlet/vxronline have done. Will be more than happy with the 1/2 tooth results!! :D

Yes, Stephan Klasen is selling those sportcams.
click me
Here is a video of an Opel Astra OPC with these sportcams idling.
Yum Yum :wub:


Yum yum indeed! :D Not so yum at £650 :o

Edited by cheeky_chops, 20 March 2009 - 04:06 PM.


#17 Toady

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 09:27 PM

[font="Verdana"][size=2]Read the link above. The gas is pushed out by the piston. The problem is you have a turbo stopping it getting out of the exhaust causing high pressure in the exhaust manifold. If overlaped, this will cause the pistion to push air back thru the inlet valve, not the ehaust value = BAD!

Yep know what your saying. Let us know how you get on with the regrinds mate!

#18 cheeky_chops

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 09:33 AM

Cams on on their way - garry @ piper said the spec is better than above and are "hotter" :D Full details are in the box Now, just need a vernier, fitting with cambelt kit and rr time to dial them in! :D

#19 cheeky_chops

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 08:32 AM

yum yum cams have arrived! :D inlet 16/56 outlet 56/16 duration 252 lift: 9.45 @110deg lift @TDC .80mm Overlap 32deg Any thoughts?

#20 Duncan VXR

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 09:04 AM

Yeah, get a decent manifold and turbo fitted ;):D Be interesting to see the outcome of this Paul.....




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