29 replies to this topic

[Boombang]

Prompted by comments posted on here, and having a garage full of both A048s and 888s, thought would show difference in stiffness between them - sidewalls, tread, and corners.

Side by side - 888s have slightly squarer profile. Not ideal IMHO on cars with very little arch clearance (Pug 205s for example). It theoretically would give a larger contact patch, however that would require the tyre contact patch to stay flat under all loads - which I'm not convinced the tyre would do under common running pressures given the flex.



First of my very scientific tests - push down in middle of tread with hand, check how much middle of read deforms:

888



A048




The 888 deforms far far more, actually feels like a very soft road tyre and takes very little pressure to squeeze like above. A048 needs a lot more weight on it to flex even that little.


2nd - tread on sidewalls to see how stiff they are:

888



A048



The 888 again flexes massively. I am in fact almost putting all my weight onto the A048 and it's still fairly straight, the 888 with only a little pressure has deformed a load.



3rd - sidewall deformation from pressure on side of tread:

888



A048



Crap photos, sorry didn't realise how different angles were!

Does show again masive deformation to the 888, A048 once more I was putting in a lot more effort yet didn't move anywhere near as much.


Now I am sure everyone is aware that once on a wheel and full of air they behaviour will be different - but goes to show how different the makeup of these two "similar" tyres is.

My choice is always A048, have used 888s in past and thought a lot of them, but back to back didn't offer the same ultimate performance.
On a tight, twisty road or track you can really feel the difference, and the extra stiffness in the A048 will make the most of a well setup suspension system.

If you have a softly setup road car, the 888s would probably be find for you, just the tighter you set a car up the more you will notice the difference, which IMHO is a world apart from one another.

[cheeky_chops]

good pics i used to think i could feel the writing on the road like brail with 048's

[chris]

Are these AO 48 LTS ?

[meldert]

Now I am sure everyone is aware that once on a wheel and full of air they behaviour will be different - but goes to show how different the makeup of these two "similar" tyres is.

My choice is always A048, have used 888s in past and thought a lot of them, but back to back didn't offer the same ultimate performance.
On a tight, twisty road or track you can really feel the difference, and the extra stiffness in the A048 will make the most of a well setup suspension system.

If you have a softly setup road car, the 888s would probably be find for you, just the tighter you set a car up the more you will notice the difference, which IMHO is a world apart from one another.

Interesting but IMHO (and you suggest it too) pointless comparison.

I don't really agree with your opinion about the two tires either...

In my opinion the R888 are much more user friendly on track days, they are a bit more forgiving when it comes to tyre pressures. When I used A048 (I'v been through 3 sets on my car) I had to constantly laborate with tyre pressures to get the grip I wanted from the tires and get decent lap times. When I changed to R888 I could quickly get down to the same lap times without that much fiddle with the pressures, and I could get even quicker times after some more work with the tyre pressures.

I also have a hard time relating to your sentence "On a tight, twisty road or track you can really feel the difference".
How can you put road and track together like that in the same sentence? Do you drive as quick on the road as you do on track or do you drive as slow on the track as you do on the road???

I have never got my A048 or R888 up to real working temperature on the road, even if I drive really inspired, and of course the tires behave differently at low temperatures. At proper working temperature, which probably only is achievable when driving really hard on track, both A048 and R888 transform their behavior. I think the R888 are better on track (quicker and easier to work with) but A048 might be better for inspired road driving.

[Boombang]

Interesting but IMHO (and you suggest it too) pointless comparison.

I don't really agree with your opinion about the two tires either...

In my opinion the R888 are much more user friendly on track days, they are a bit more forgiving when it comes to tyre pressures. When I used A048 (I'v been through 3 sets on my car) I had to constantly laborate with tyre pressures to get the grip I wanted from the tires and get decent lap times. When I changed to R888 I could quickly get down to the same lap times without that much fiddle with the pressures, and I could get even quicker times after some more work with the tyre pressures.

I also have a hard time relating to your sentence "On a tight, twisty road or track you can really feel the difference".
How can you put road and track together like that in the same sentence? Do you drive as quick on the road as you do on track or do you drive as slow on the track as you do on the road???

I have never got my A048 or R888 up to real working temperature on the road, even if I drive really inspired, and of course the tires behave differently at low temperatures. At proper working temperature, which probably only is achievable when driving really hard on track, both A048 and R888 transform their behavior. I think the R888 are better on track (quicker and easier to work with) but A048 might be better for inspired road driving.

Not pointless at all, both tyres have massively different physical properties which I felt given the marketing blurb from Toyo would be interesting to forum members. Given the Yoko being more expensive, you can see that the extra cost buys you a significantly stiffer tyre shell which you can easily argue would improve handling (steering input sharper due to less flex, suspension is made to work rather than relying on tyres etc).

Put road and track in same sentence as in my experience the immediate difference between the tyres is transition from one direction to another, where you can really feel the 888s flex, with A048s giving a sharper response through both steering and chassis. FYI I drive very carefully and at appropriate speed on a road, and as quick as I can go on track.

I've had both tyres at working temps on the road, although completely agree the 888 hit temperature more quickly. I would however go the other way to you, and say 888s are possibly better road tyres but A048s superior on track. I would also say A048s are better in the wet, and even acceptable on standing water if you cut to semi-wet tread pattern (basically you complete the alternate treads back to the edge of the tread, helps to disperse water - although again I would go to A021s or road tyres if expecting a massive amount of wet use).

Competition use is a completely different story, but not going into any detail wouldn't use 888s again as they do not stand up well to being overheated. Have experienced on my car and vehicles have serviced on where the tread just begins to roll off, when the A048s would have held on a touch longer. On a 10+ mile stage in hot weather, this happens a lot sooner than you'd expect with the 888s.

The 888s are often 1st choice for people due to price, but also flatter a car's suspension and driver inputs due to that extra bit of flex. The A048s I feel have the edge on grip, combine that with the stiffness not toning down inputs, they tend to break less progressively.

Everyone is completely entitled to their own opinion, and would expect opinions to differ - but going back to idea of the thread, it was to simply show how different the construction is.

[alanoo]

Are these AO 48 LTS ?

?

[meldert]

Not pointless at all, both tyres have massively different physical properties which I felt given the marketing blurb from Toyo would be interesting to forum members. Given the Yoko being more expensive, you can see that the extra cost buys you a significantly stiffer tyre shell which you can easily argue would improve handling (steering input sharper due to less flex, suspension is made to work rather than relying on tyres etc).

Pointless was probably harsh, as you said it shows that the tires have different physical properties, but it is very hard to get any conclusions out of it. I would still argue that experience from actual use of the tires would give much more than putting various pressure by hand on an empty tyre. When it comes to driving experience we seem to have different experiences.

Are these AO 48 LTS ?

I would guess that all A048 of the same size would have the same shell the only thing that differs is the softness of the rubber, and in the tests above that wouldn't matter.

[alanoo]

Nop wrong, different weights between a A048M and a LTS (and the feeling from the sidewalls on track are very different too, personally I prefer the M or MH a lot, the LTS are much softer from the structure)

Edited by alanoo, 23 October 2009 - 08:36 PM.

[Boombang]

Pointless was probably harsh, as you said it shows that the tires have different physical properties, but it is very hard to get any conclusions out of it. I would still argue that experience from actual use of the tires would give much more than putting various pressure by hand on an empty tyre. When it comes to driving experience we seem to have different experiences.

I thought I was pretty clear on all this in the first post, but guess not. You're looking at it all backwards. I've found comparing the two back to back on a couple of different vehicles, that 888s lose some precision and outright performance but perhaps have a more progressive breakaway & easier to get to temperature. I've then looked at the tyres seperate from the rims and found an explanation for the behaviour. Generally speaking, tyre flex is something you don't want unless driving over snow or mud.

This whole thread was only started after I read a comment from a Toyo rep on this very site and disagreed with it. Rather than sit behind a keyboard and make claims felt that could demonstrate why I did not agree with a few simple pictures.

These Yokos are Ms. Not yet got hold of a LTS carcuss, would be interesting to have a look at one and see how they differ. This would be a lot more relevant I guess, and probably more interesting. We actually were at Polley's this evening on way up to collect the VX220, but completely forgot to ask if they had any knocking about.

Edited by Boombang, 24 October 2009 - 02:48 AM.

[WrightStuff]

Currently got R888s on but they're up for being replaced soon. Always found them good, but I don't know any better! Anybody else done a track comparison between R888s and A048s ?

[The Knobs]

you must get really really bored

[WrightStuff]

you must get really really bored

On a train at the mo, so yes!

[Mike (Cliffie)]

OK, so did Le Mans last year on 888, will do Le Mans again this year on AO48, anyone care enough for me to do a comparison? What I really need is a set of AO40 and a set of 888 at the same circuit, same time to do it properly. I have found that I overheat the 888 on circuit especially the rears and they get really slippery.

[mandarinvx]

I want a comparison with Kumho V70A too

[siztenboots]

AO48 front R888 rear

[Nev]

Thanks for the post. Interesting. I had no idea that A048s were generally harder/stiffer.

[WrightStuff]

OK, so did Le Mans last year on 888, will do Le Mans again this year on AO48, anyone care enough for me to do a comparison?

What I really need is a set of AO40 and a set of 888 at the same circuit, same time to do it properly.

I have found that I overheat the 888 on circuit especially the rears and they get really slippery.

I am interested but by the time Le Mans comes around I will have already had to choose my camp as my current set are due for replacement soon.

[MAXR]

I've used Yoko LTS's on Track for the past 2.5 years & have been through 6 sets so far. I tried R888's last year and they felt very different on the limit (not Good). I guess much of that was down to finding the correct hot tyre pressures. My Nitron springs are standard items, so maybe the LTS's are a better proposition on my car anyway. I will be sticking with the Yoko's for now, at least until I get time to get some Randy Spec Nitrons, then maybe the R888's will be a good option. ...By the way, did you ever get around to weighing the two tyres? I hear that the Yoko's are much, much heavier.. Max

[JimmyJamJerusalem]

I want a comparison with Kumho V70A too

When I'm done with Time Attack I'll be going over to these tyres. They did a rather more scientific test on the German Speedster forum and the Kumho's came out better then 888's and A048's!! Cheaper too!

[WrightStuff]

OK, so did Le Mans last year on 888, will do Le Mans again this year on AO48, anyone care enough for me to do a comparison?

What I really need is a set of AO40 and a set of 888 at the same circuit, same time to do it properly.

I have found that I overheat the 888 on circuit especially the rears and they get really slippery.

Have you got your A048s sorted already Cliffie ?
Having contacted a number of suppliers today regarding a price/stock for a set I got the response :

"no more 225/45/17 for rest of year, Yokohama are holding all stocks back for the lotus championships."