52 replies to this topic

[Porker]

+ No Vauxhall

What does that have to do with anything?! If it bothers you that you're driving a Vauxhall, then I'd say you're prime Lotus material

It doesn't bother me, although it does bother me I'm the hero of every Opel-fanatic (yes they exist ) in the neighboorhood

No, with Vauxhall as a con, I mean, I love the car, except for the Vauxhall-bits, mainly the engine...

Edited by Porker, 08 January 2010 - 11:12 AM.

[Yellow_or_black?]

You mean you don't like being the focus for their perving? Ah, I see. Good luck with whatever you decide

[hogman]

If its the proper Sport 160 SVA then it should have all the trick bits on, if its a Sport 160 WVTA then it could be any spec with alot of the trick bits missing. K series is a delicate engine unless it has been properly fettled but not that many have due to the high cost involved. Be prepared for plenty of engine rebuilds and also maintenance issues, remember the S1 is getting on abit now. K Series is a definate CON not a PRO. If you want the ultimate then look at an S1 with a Honda K20 engine and supercharged or even an S2 190 Sport or even better Exige

[SteveA]

S2 190 Sport

S2 190 Sport is K-Series also

[hogman]

My bad thought it was a stripped out Yota engined one

[Jameshs]

S2 190 Sport

S2 190 Sport is K-Series also

Which IIRC needs even more rebuilding than a 160

[Winstar]

S2 190 Sport

S2 190 Sport is K-Series also

Which IIRC needs even more rebuilding than a 160

Yes but runs better due to the ITB's

[Porker]

S2 190 Sport

S2 190 Sport is K-Series also

Which IIRC needs even more rebuilding than a 160

Yes but runs better due to the ITB's

Thanks for the advice everyone..

An S2 190 Sport or Exige are too expensive for me, I'm still studying

I'd indeed love an Elise with a Honda K20-engine, as it seems an ideal marriage, but do these conversions tend to be reliable and well done?

[SteveA]

Depends on who has done them but most pro ones have a warranty associated (Sinclaires, Honda Elise etc)

[Mangham54]

K-series defintiely has more character than the Z22SE, both positive and negative. Cold start on a 160 sounds like a tractor, but once warm they do sound pretty good. The big issue I always have had with the non-VVC K-series engines is that minimal torque low-down, they do make up for it when you get the valve change (even the 1.4 has a noticeable step in performance (all be it limited performance) once you break the 4k mark). But in many ways that was my irritation - you really need to squeeze the K-series to get the best out of it and when you do they get awfully thirsty. I have had two k-series cars (still got one and it has been a fantastically reliable car) and neither have had a head gasket go - though now I have said that it will half way up to Newcastle in this cold weather this aft. They can be tempramental and especially so in the Elise as the cooling system (as Winstar said) really doesn't help unless you start playing around with the location of the thermostat, but then that can bring up other issues. Each variant of the Elise (inc. VX220) has its gremlins, sometimes it is just worth investing in what you have as you can swap a reliable car for a less reliable one hoping to go the other way. If the S1 had semi-slicks and uprated brakes then it will undoubtably stick yours braking and cornering - they are fundamental for cornering - but with a low pressure SC and similar sticky tyres you never know - it may be you running circles around him.

Edited by Mangham54, 08 January 2010 - 01:32 PM.

[chris_uk]

are you sure his breaking technique wasnt better than yours? would it not be better to look at loosing weight from the vx? lighter wheels might help, the ones you have now weigh about the same as a small glacier, so you need some lightweight TD's and sell the speedlines to me. im sure there are a couple of things that you could do to loose some of the weight, loosing the passenger seat, remove head rests, lighter wheels, rear glass changed to perspex, lightweight rollbar etc etc.. im sure that would help

[Garry.L]

Given I've owned several K-Series powered cars, inc 2 160's..... Head gasket failure is a case of 'when' rather than 'if', early 160 lumps (01-53 manufacture) were never heat treated correctly on the head so gasket would fail sub 20K miles. cylinder heads can become porous or 'soft' if engine is over heated and will need replacing, also even a 'good' head should be hardness checked before refitting (general advice is never skim a 'K' as it'll just remove even more of the hardness). another problem is cylinder liners can drop which means any HGF repair is almost certain to fail again within a few K miles, in this latter case engine is pretty much scrap. Remember, HGF is nearly always the symptom of the problem, not the cause - it's VERY rare the gasket 'itself' fails. As said, 160's can be noisy when cold, more so if VVC mechanism is worn. (VVC = Very Very Complicated) As an example of the above when I was looking at getting my old TF160, of the circa eight cars I looked at only one had reached 30K miles on it's original gasket, most had failed sub 20K, with one failing at the galactic milage of only 11k from new. Despite the above I still like the 'Special K', but you must budjet for at least one HGF repair in your ownership.

Edited by Garry.L, 08 January 2010 - 08:58 PM.

[VXJON]

Garry covered most of the points I would make A point to note is that the 160s will sound like a bag of spanner, sounds awesome on full chat but rather broken at irattic idle. A emerald and verniers will sort a lot of the rough running

[SteveA]

I once went out in a 340r, which has the same engine as the Sport 190/S1 Exige Etc. The best sounding 4 cylinder engine engine i've even heard

[sc-009]

that link earlier in the thread is to a honda s1, was that intentional?


most of the 'problems' of the K-series have been resolved as people have upgraded and had work done to them.

A lot of the HGF issues are resolved by:
making sure liner heights are correct (which is about 4-6 thou iirc).
fitting a prrt/prt http://web.tiscali.it/elise_s1/

The liners don't 'drop', they came out of the factory low. DVA can adjust high ones, not sure about low ones (that may requite a new liner cutting in).

A lot of the decent cars have had headwork now. People like DVA and Sabre Heads peen the heads and make sure they've not 'gone soft' before working them. The peening helps prevent any proisity after it's been skimmed. They are correct any machine errors in the valve guides fit new ones (Rover machining had quite big tolerances).
If the head was fitted by DVA he will have checked the liner heights so youll know its good.

Cams make a big difference but they need to be timed well. Anything over 260 in duration tends to need an aftermarket ECU. Guys are running the std ecu with a 264 dur 10mm lift cam but its required careful timing and increased fuel pressure.

They rev to about 7k, any more or over about 170-180 brake and the bottom end needs work. Rods and pistons. The VVC engine has better pistons than the std one. I cant remember if the crank is different.
Cranks can struggle with wear but if the cars been looked after, if it's had shells looked at if its high power, of if its std power it should be fine. I rebuilt a 90k miler on about 125bhp and they were fine for a 90k mile engine.

The VHPD (Exige, Sport 190s) have a very different engine. The head is very different and the bottom end is more substantial (bigger journals iirc). People have had to replace shells, pistions, liners from 2k-8k miles. I think a reccommended rebuild or at leas inspection was about 2k miles for the VHPDs. The cams are quite warm and some find it too lumpy so replace the ECU.

I've never had a VVC model, i dont know how great it is but i know a some heavy track users remove VVC. A lot of the good stuff about the 160s was a result of the geo setup, most of the decent S1s have better aftermarket suspension now, nitrons, gaz, S2 billies.

not many change the brakes. decent pads are a must.

The later S1s got heavier. Started in about 2000 i think.

A lot of them now will benifit the bushes being replaced beucase the rubbers getting old. Even if they have the S2 Billies it doesnt meant they dont need replacing.


If it was me I'd be looking for a K putting out up to 175bhp (for reliability) or a K with 180-200 with bottom end work, a VHPD engine to do many miles at over 190bhp and frequent rebuilds on reccommendation from someone like DVA. Or a Honda or Duratec conversion to get a safe, easy 200brake. (the k is super light tho)

I'd want GAZ or Nitrons and a full suspension refresh within recent past.

Decent paintwork, tidy, reconitioned interior.

You'll spend about 10k for a good k example with mods, up to about 13 for a perfect K with very high power, maybe as much as 16 for a engine conversion S1.

HTH

[Porker]

Thanks guys for all this detailed info, I couldn't wish for more!

It seems the K-series option is not ideal for hasslefree ownership, but it still appeals to me. I'll make sure to keep my eye open for properly upgraded K-series engines.

As someone suggested, I would like to lighten my VX, but it's not as straightforward as it would be with a normal car, I mean, there's not much to throw out of such a car. The wheels I certainly want to keep, I love them, the passenger seat too, as it comes in handy...
If I keep the VX, the first thing that needs changing are the dampers + springs (Sachs), as they're tired or not up to the task, so I'm certainly on the lookout for that too, sadly the money for my dampers just flew out of the window after I received a fine (£1000) 2 days ago for drifting on a roundabout.

Have a look at this guy, he's going all the way with removing weight from his Speedster:
http://www.rugissante.com/7.html

Bilan des allègements et alourdissements :

2006 suppression des sous tapis sol -2.00 (902.80)
2006 suppression de la moquette + tapis mousse dans le coffre -1.08 (901.72)
2006 rétroviseurs extérieurs en carbone -0.30 (901.42)
2006 durites aviation -0.16 (901.26)
2006 installation d'harnais six points + barre anti-rapprochement +6.30 (907.56)
2006 système anti-refoulement reniflard boite de vitesse +0.10 (907.66)
2007 nouveaux baquets en polyester 3,4kg (origine 7,9 kg) -7.60 (900.06)
2007 suppression de l'isolation phonique en mousse derriere les baquets -2.13 (897.93)
2007 suppression de la moquette intérieure (7 morceaux ) + mousse tapis sol -2.10 (895.83)
2007 suppression de l'isolant phonique collé au chassis et dans la baie arriére -1.44 (894.39)
2007 jantes 7,5x17 9x17 avec pneus semi slick 205/40R17 225/45R17 -12.00 (882.39)
2007 modification de la boite à air -0.22 (882.17)
2007 tapis de sol conducteur en carbone -0.70 (882.87 )
2007 tapis de sol passager en carbone -0.91 (883.78 )
2007 extincteur inhibiteur -0.25 (884.03)
2007 nouvel échangeur air/air 7 L -0.48 (883.55)
2007 amortisseurs 2 voies réglables -0.20 (883.35)
2007 suppression des arbres d'équilibrage moteur -4.76 (878.59)
2007 suppression du précatalyseur -0.70 (877.89)
2007 pesée 891.5 kg avec 20.4 kg d'essence soit (871.10)
2007 suppression de l'autoradio et des hauts parleurs -2.49 (868.61)
2007 découpe des head impact -2.10 (866.51)
2007 batterie au plomb pur -5.10 (861.41)
2007 suppression des feux antibrouillard -1.38 (860.03)
2007 suppression du panneau des haut-parleurs -2.00 (858.03)
2007 supports de levage moteur -0.43 (857.60)
2007 ligne d'échappement inox 70mm/66mm interne (origine21.5 kg) -7.00 (850.60)
2008 fixations latérales FIA du baquet pilote en aluminium 6mm -1.80 (848.80)
2008 réservoir en aluminium 48L anti dégeaugage ( origine 10.9 kg ) -4.00 (844.80)
2008 suppression de la poulie folle+support +tendeur courroie alternateur -3.32 (841.48)
2008 radiateur d'huile additionnel +2.50 (843.98)
2008 collecteur d'échappement haute performance +1.80 (845.78)
2008 isolation phonique baie moteur -0.98 (844.80)
2008 volant moteur allégé (10 kg origine ) -4.40 (840.40)
2008 poulie basse en aluminium -1.00 (839.40)
2008 réservoir d'essence additionnel et sa pompe haut débit +1.00 (840.40)
2008 catalyseur sport 200 cpsi +2.40 (842.80)
2008 console centrale allégée (origine 1,13kg) -0.50 (842.30)
2008 nouveaux tapis de sol -1.14 (841.16)
2008 fond plat avant en carbone (origine 0.86 kg) -0.50 (840.66)
2008 tunnel central en carbone (origine 0.66 kg carbone 0.28 kg) -0.37 (840.29)
2008 disques rainurés avant sur bol aluminium 308mm étriers 6 pistons -2.30 (837.99)
2008 fond plat central avec prises d'air NACA intégrées en carbone -2.00 (835.99)
2008 extracteur d'air long en carbone (origine 1,61kg) +0.49 (836.48)
2008 vis de roues en titane -0.58 ( 835.90)
2008 extincteur au gaz FIA +4.35 (840.25)
2008 disques rainurés arrière sur bol aluminium 290mm -3.00 (837.25)
2008 suppression de la boite registre d'air -0.82 (836.43)
2008 remplacement du système de ventilation -1.06 (835.37)
2008 suppression du chauffage (-1.5 l de liquide de refroidissement) -2.80 (832.57)
2008 console centrale en carbone -0.43 (832.14)
2008 vitre arrière en Margard -0.78 (831.36)
2008 traverse sous tableau de bord -2.30 (829.06)
2008 support du vase d'expansion en carbone -0.58 (828.48)
2009 support d'échangeur air/air en carbone -0.25 (828.23)
2009 barre anti-roulis majorée et réglable +1.00 (829.23)
2009 volant extractible -0.59 (828.64)
2009 protection thermique du toe-link gauche +0.11 (828.75)
2009 anneau de remorquage FIA avant en aluminium 5mm -0.32 (828.43)
2009 anneau de remorquage arrière en carbone +0.05 (828.48)
2009 tableau de bord en carbone +0.20 (828.68)
2009 suppression de la casquette de stack -0.20 (828.48)
2009 plage avant (oem 3.00kg) en carbone avec aération et 3 manomètres -1.30 (827.18)
2009 sondes +0.18 (827.36)
2009 tube d'admission d'air en carbone -0.51 (826.85)
2009 hardtop en carbon/kevlar -1.00 (825.85)
2009 catch can en carbone +0.39 (826.24)
2009 durite supérieure d'échangeur air/air en carbone - 0.16 (826.08)
2009 nouveaux rétroviseurs (actuels 0,440kg objectif 0,125kg) -0.63 (825.45)


Poids : 825 kg (en ordre de marche sans essence)

Soit un allègement de 98.28kg et un alourdissement de 23.04kg pour une moyenne de 486 euros du kilo.

Futur

2010 durite échangeur inférieure en carbone/kevlar -0.10
2010 nouveau capot arrière en carbone (OEM 5.99kg) -3.00
2010 réservoir lave glace 0.5l en carbone avec crochet intégré -0.50
2010 ligne d'échappement 76mm e1.6mm sortie unique +0.00
2010 sortie d'échappement centrale ovale (carbone ?) -0.10
2010 portes en carbone avec tour de vitre -8.00
2010 vitres latérales en Marguard 3mm -2.00
2010 extension de fond plat +0.30
2010 nouveau capot avant en carbone 1.9kg -1.00
2010 nouvelle casquette en carbone (OEM 2.60kg) -1.10
2010 fixations latérales du baquet passager en aluminium 5mm 1,34kg -0.40
2010 suppression du système de commande de dump valve (dépression) -0.50
2010 extension d'arceau côté passager (5 points) +2.50

Edited by Porker, 09 January 2010 - 10:19 AM.

[Mangham54]

£1000 fine for drifting round a roundabout. Where do you live Iran? Christ! I know of an arsehole that killed someone having stolen a car whilst on coke and he got 3month suspended sentence and a £200 fine!

Edited by Mangham54, 09 January 2010 - 11:06 AM.

[Porker]

�1000 fine for drifting round a roundabout. Where do you live Iran?

Christ! I know of an arsehole that killed someone having stolen a car whilst on coke and he got 3month suspended sentence and a �200 fine!

I'd guess Iran is more relaxed towards driving than Belgium is...

To be precise it's €1.115 and 1 month suspended, I'd get fined 1/5th of that if I'd run out on the street and start hitting my neighbors with a baseballbat, sad but true...

[Mangham54]

�1000 fine for drifting round a roundabout. Where do you live Iran?

Christ! I know of an arsehole that killed someone having stolen a car whilst on coke and he got 3month suspended sentence and a �200 fine!

I'd guess Iran is more relaxed towards driving than Belgium is...

To be precise it's €1.115 and 1 month suspended, I'd get fined 1/5th of that if I'd run out on the street and start hitting my neighbors with a baseballbat, sad but true...

Belgium... I now understand.

Beautiful roads though!

[SteveA]

that link earlier in the thread is to a honda s1, was that intentional?

Yes.

Have a look at this guy, he's going all the way with removing weight from his Speedster:

Thats Gilles' car (Rapidos), he is a member on here.

Edited by SteveA, 09 January 2010 - 08:01 PM.